Comments on: R3 Graphics?
REBOL Technologies

Comments on: R3 Graphics?

Carl Sassenrath, CTO
REBOL Technologies
31-Mar-2013 11:24 GMT

Article #0528
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How is it going on R3 open source graphics these days? Can someone post an update?

Is R3 graphics running on Linux and what about Android or IOS?

What about graphics rendering in DirectFB? That's great for embedded devices, and it's something I'd find useful on a weekly basis.

62 Comments

Comments:

Ladislav
31-Mar-2013 5:40:21
There is progress. This week Cyphre made "alpha swap to standard" (0 transparent 255 opaque), which seemed important for better compatibility with different frameworks.

Also this week I corrected two GOB-related GC bugs, GOB parent recycle bug and GOB recycling for the graphics to be able to work.

Ladislav
31-Mar-2013 6:05:46
Yet another news to mention is that there is a "community r3" to accept "consensual" pull requests to indicate such a consensus already exists to you.
-pekr-
31-Mar-2013 8:30:05
If I understand it correctly, Cyphre tries to overhaul R3 View engine, so that it will be able to render using different back-ends ...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rebol/6MMlv-E3j-E

Carl Sassenrath
31-Mar-2013 23:25:14
The alpha swap makes sense. It will be interesting to see how it turned out.

The community r3 sounds like a good approach. It's good to see improvements being made like that.

Arie van Wingerden
1-Apr-2013 3:51:09
Hi, when I read there is a "community R3" I am very glad. However, it bothers me that still most Rebol activity is hidden from the great www public. Could we please unite and e.g. start using MaxV's forum etc.? (At least something like that) and abandon AltME for this purpose. (I *do* like AltME as such very much)). In that way we could attract *much* more attention. Kindest regards, Arie
CCX
1-Apr-2013 9:57:15
Thanks Mr. Carl Sassenrath for saying that a Community R3 sounds like a good idea. I've been mentioning the same concept in various forms but it is close to impossible for a newcomer (with just 1 pull request) to brake the current inertia.

•CCX•

(BTW, as Ladislav gave no URL, I think he was really being sarcastic about a Community R3)

Ladislav
1-Apr-2013 10:19:12
https://github.com/rebolsource/r3
CCX
1-Apr-2013 10:45:01
Ladislav, you were saying the truth, thanks!

Will pull request be merged into RebolSource/R3 as they appear in Rebol/R3 and are evaluated as correct? Or will it be required to generate a second pull request?

Andreas
1-Apr-2013 11:04:12
(at)CCX: Many long-standing pull requests against rebol/r3 have already been merged into rebolsource/r3. We will continue to do so.
John
1-Apr-2013 15:15:42
Hi Arie, There is a very active public chat room on stackoverflow

http://chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/291/rebol-and-red

and google groups

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/rebol

Arnold
2-Apr-2013 1:22:11
Arie,

Better promote the benefits of the AltME: because it is storing messages local fou can always view all discussions even when you are not online. If you switch to a different subject you do not have to wait for an external server to build up your webpage. Because it is a chat interface you are immediately updated with the posts of other community members without having to refresh your webpage yourself.

Many of the discussions on AltME are web-public; regularly refreshed on the webserver to be found via ordinary browsers.

Any interested developer can join AltME, it is available on all platforms and there is no site nagging you that it does not support your IE8 browser (i.e. Trello, Github and others) if you happen to use that because that is what is on the PC you use (public computer etc).

AltME is a demonstration of how a lightweight REBOL program can do what others can't in way less MB's.

Arie van Wingerden
2-Apr-2013 2:04:39
Thanks for the reactions. Maybe divide and conquer is the way to go, but I personally think that a centralized approach would be even better ;-) Anyway, keep up the good work. I love Rebol (and AltME)! Arie
Arnold
2-Apr-2013 3:20:06
It is not about hiding from the www or the world. It is about using a pretty good tool to communicate and coordinate improvements.

At the moment it might seem hidden, yes. And there is still a lot to do before the current R3 and Red will be showing of enough power to attract vast more dev's from all the competition out there. New developers will always be more than welcome to join.

Personally I think working with for example Github is more difficult than getting AltME up and running and entering the wonderful world of rebol4.

Rocket Science 101
2-Apr-2013 10:12:49
RE: Comments on: R3 Graphics?

Carl Sassenrath, CTO

REBOL Technologies

31-Mar-2013 11:24 GMT <<<<<<<

Article #0528

---

So did the Easter bunny (Carl) see his shadow? Meaning 6 more years of Rebol winter.

Or did Carl post his April Fools' joke early?

Answer: Yes.

To-do list for Carl:

1. Get a REAL PHP forum running on www.rebol.com

2. Get a REAL PHP wiki running on www.rebol.com

3. Appoint a few trusted REBOL gurus to administer 1 & 2.

4. Disavow all other forums of pagan Rebol cult worship.

5. Go back into the witless protection program.

Is it really that hard to focus all Rebol efforts???

Answer: I hope not.

Ladislav
2-Apr-2013 14:54:29
Hi, Arie, if you want to be more "public" use the mailing list at https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/Rebol or the chat at http://chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/291/rebol-and-red
Ladislav
2-Apr-2013 15:07:26
"Will pull request be merged into RebolSource/R3 as they appear in Rebol/R3 and are evaluated as correct?" - actually, correctness is not the criterium. Some "consensus" between "community board" is.
MaxV
8-Apr-2013 3:09:17
(at)Rocket Science 101 there is all you want here:

http://rebol.informe.com/

and here:

http://rebol.informe.com/blog/

MaxV
8-Apr-2013 3:13
The onnly source containing all Ladislav (and all others people) enhancement and the graphic is here:

https://github.com/angerangel/r3bazaar

MaxV
8-Apr-2013 10:17:53
r3 graphics ... yet another name for the same thing that hasn't truely evolved since 2009? I mean r3gui ?

CArl as for the concept it is mandatory at least for the 3 main OS that are windows, linux, MACOSX to have a common ground and not having to split efforts into writing 3 times the same things in 3 differents idiomes with three different ways to see the graphical layer. As for linux today more and more we here about the new graphical server Wayland that will replace X11R6 so not only if you build for X11 you will have poor perf but in a near futur you will have to do it again to fit wayland.(you here means anyone that will write code...)

shadwolf
8-Apr-2013 10:43:13
sorry I messed up the previous comment is mine ...

Yes r3 Video Dialect is a big topic and as the previous article on this blog I fear this will lead to no conclusion until someone takes on his time do the job on his ways to face the critics that done nothing ... I don't like that way to work.. I don't like the lone coder thing on his cave doing solo selfsatisfactory work that please none other than himselves and that expose to world that work face tons of critics and discontents and disapear from the face of the planet and says it is not my conserns anymore.(no one in particular is targetted by that comment we all did that including me...)

A community is setting some commune goals, reflections, working procedures, it is not gluing together things that individually we see fit...

as for directFB it seems pretty active, it is an abstraction layer over X11 SDL and it is for linux and system V compatible OS... If the goal is to have something lightweight we can deploy everywhere with minimal changes why not directly going to the SDL front or openGL/glut ?

abstraction layers that allows graphical acceleration on every possible OS already exists... Why once again reinventing the wheel. With the actual licence of rebol3 it is even possible to take glut strip it down from what we don't like (mainly 2D management that can be handled by AGG) add a AGG support for 2D stuff and enhance AGG to work with opengl for graphical accelerations.. We keep it small simple and everything Carl beg us to do and that others coders don't want to do...

shadwolf
8-Apr-2013 11:14:15
I fear that with rebol3 we are still jumping from one showroom to attrack possible clients to another one.

I see r3 port to android like a toy that will have no more future than it's predecesor showrooms Rebcode, RebService, Rebrowser Plugins, desktop, IOS, etc...

I don't know or say that r3android is irrelevant and a loss of time and ressources but that is the feeling I have upon it. Once cyphre gets tired of it and it prouves not to bring him the fortune he expected he will change his conserns to yet another topic.

Anyway does this reply to the topic of this article ? not at all. Cyphre and RMA were entitled with r3gui and they are nowhere on the map when it commes to have talkings about r3 graphics. Their fans will tell us that they are preparing something big that is why they are silent. I'm more pragmatic ....

Shadwolf
8-Apr-2013 11:25:27
as for what cyphre put on his google blog about host-view well I don't see where he is going ... it is just a list of already existing files the structure is known since 2009. and I like the intro ... he alone during the dev of r3/saphir saw that it was mandatory to have a common ground and an opened design to ease the port of r3gui ...

LOL...

Rocket Science 101
8-Apr-2013 13:26:05
Google Search News for Rebol

Josephine Perez Rebol Daily Herald - 1 day ago Josephine "Josie" Perez Rebol, widow, mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, and sister passed away peacefully at home on April 3, 2013.

Rest In Peace - Rebol... (sniff)

(Note: It is NOT good that "Rebol" is an actual human being's family name!)

---

Re: MaxV

Nice effort. But the problem is that Google searches for Rebol don't show your forum/blog. Maybe people will stumble upon Carl's blog and this thread. Maybe not. Maybe people will highlight your link and open as url. Maybe not. Mostly not - from the number of posts I see there :(

www.rebol.com is a mess. Many confusing links. Much outdated info. Incomplete info. Rebol 3 docs copied from Rebol 2 docs and then not updated. Rebol 3 not support view etc. etc. etc. People say WTF? And move on.

You read here: "use altme." Okay. I want to see overview of what is going on. The altme links on www.rebol.com show year(s) old out of date archives. The altme archives look like twitter chatter at the intellectual level of Justin Beiber fan girls. By accident, because I came back many times hoping for new Rebol 3 updates, I find newer Rebol 3 posts under a side Rebol 4 link. WTF?

By drilling down into MaxV links, I see he has the docs put into wiki form. Good start. But Carl needs to host/link your site, no? How do I know that your site will be around or supported in 2 years, 1 year, or 6 months? Why waste my time if few, if any other, Rebol "stars" post there? Especially NOT CARL?

I mentioned the questionable use of the legal name of "Rebol" above.

Carl has let the Rebol U.S. Tradmarks lapse. By not renewing the Rebol trademarks ANYONE can now use them.

So I claimed them all! All your Rebols now belong to me*! And now you all must cease and desist using my Rebol trademarks! See you in courts!

P.S. Maybe you can rename your product to "Beiber" or "Obama"?

---

* April Fools' 7 days late, but this is a danger, that anyone can start using Rebol for a product name after Carl "abandoned" the trademarked Rebol name(s).

Arnold
8-Apr-2013 22:46:18
Exactly my point in keeping conversations from AltMe appearing on web archive pages. AltME is a perfect chat-environment for discussions and development and asking questions and getting most answered pretty quick too.

If you want tutorials and announcements of progress, putting AltME discussions to the web is not the way to go indeed. Neither it is the way to show to the outside world that things are happening. Better is to blog some of the highlights from AltMe on a blog like this and mentioning progress derived from collaboration using AltME.

But proper means to do so lack, dispite well-meant (and well-performed, MaxV) initiatives. These places are not the logical place to look for information.

Rebol.com is the first natural place to look for information. The community needs this site or part of it to show the progress being made. So Carl, please think about allowing use of at least a subdomain of rebol.com for this purpose.

The only relevant other place is the rebol.org site. Unfortunately this site is also suffering an abandoned village syndrome.

In rebol.com being not available to the community in any other way than using this blog to comment, rebol.org should be the place gathering all attention.

Just my 2cents as usual.

Rocket Science 101
9-Apr-2013 12:51:04
I wasn't kidding about the Rebol trademarks being dead!

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=toc&state=4008%3Aj4rnop.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&BackReference=&p_plural=yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PARA2=Rebol&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA2%24COMB&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query

TESS search results: Serial Number Reg. Number Word Mark Check Status Live/Dead 1 77105496 REBOL TSDR DEAD 2 76063377 .R TSDR DEAD 3 75883970 REBOL TSDR DEAD 4 75803358 REBOL COMMAND TSDR DEAD 5 75471155 2567725 REBOL TSDR DEAD

MaxV
10-Apr-2013 0:47:07
(at)(Rocket Science 101)

Try on google:

rebol informe

You'll see that it's indexed. The site is brand new, so it will take some months to become the top in google rank.

Start to spread the word, if you want to do something. I can't suffer people complaining but doing nothing.

Come on, if Rebol will revive or not depend on you.

I just created this thread:

http://rebol.informe.com/forum/rebol-3-f9/rebol-3-to-do-list-t44.html

Come on! Show your proposal! Be constructive!

shadwolf
10-Apr-2013 7:16:59
(at) Arnold: sorry sir but it is super duper hyper easy to loose en interesting technical discussion about ground concept or the solvings of an important bugs and the confrontation of opinion and arguments when a bunch of 5 people decides to speak about the freaking weather .... and it happend a tons of time.

Suuuuuure the actual altme rebol4 world is 6 month old have what 10 actives peoples on it so yes it's a perfect world all goes smooth in a magical fairy world ... but if altme grows you will face what we all faced (and forgot ) about rebol3.

What I don't like in atlme is this - not draw/AGG powered the altme build is so old that it is even pre draw/AGG - Caracters are too tiny (yes I know you can grow them but it is not enough if you have a 1080p display and a poor vision even in grow mode it is a pain to read the text. and who want to use a 28 inch monitor wide in 600x800 ? - last update of altme was pre-matusalem - you can't skip the irrelevant blabering from a topic just a hide option you select a bunch of replies that makes your reading a pain and you hide them - estetically altme looks like an amiga 1990 app ... and it's ugly...

As a matter of fact rebol community was more effective and active when rebol technologies had only an official mailing list majordomo style!

Altme is a side thing that less and less people used along the years. This is what you can call a fail.

shadwolf
10-Apr-2013 7:20:27
most of the groups in altme where born into other groups to gather a side interresting conversation that started in another group and slowly made the initial group speak only about this new topic. for example rebGUI group started in VID group which was overflowing with rebGUI discussion so rebgui was isolated.

Today public overview about what happends in altme is 6 groups ... and one of them is dedicated to red and is from far the most active.

shadwolf
10-Apr-2013 7:22:55
as usual you have reality what 99% of the people outside the rebol connection can see and you have the dream what 0.1% of the rebol commmunity populate.

Even the announcement groups which was only to broadcast news about rebol was hard to keep free from instantaneous comments upon announcement.

Bo
15-Apr-2013 12:49:50
From Robert (Saphirion) on AltME:

Here is first *alpha* of Rebol3 with graphics on Android: http://development.saphirion.com/experimental/r3-droid-view.apk

Current features: - AGG based compositor - Basic windowing support - Working DRAW dialect - Very basic input event handling (DOWN, UP, MOVE, CLOSE events) - "Menu" button now sends "escape" to the interpreter so loops etc. can be easily interrupted - "Back" button closes opened windows, if no window is open it quits interpreter - Embedded simple "demo game", just type DEMO in the console and have fun

Note this release is very early alpha so expect unstable situations or even crashes. Feel free to report bugs or any other feedback.

This gets us one step closer to be able to create Android apps with Rebol. Simple, small, fast. :-)

shadwolf
16-Apr-2013 6:49:26
Conclusion Cyphre can port r3gui on android in 4 month flat and to get a port for linux 32/64 and macOS X we will have to do it ourselves with absolutly no clues and no interchange from cyphre. Until he sees a profit in doing it and do it. It is because android and iphones are the new computing "El dorado" that we see that rush toward that plateform.

I recall the best way to crash an android is just by having a weak data signal and launch any app using it...

It works great though. Yet another great demo in rebol world will it be given a conclusion? Wait and see...

It need another way to interact with files than the regular console. you need a simple touch interface to load or edit your files you need a virtual keyboard adapted to rebol code writing to put a [ braket in your text on default virtual keyboard you need 5 step to do it and go back to the alphabet ... yes virtual keyboard is fantastic to text your friend on twitter ... to write rebol code not that much...

shadwolf
16-Apr-2013 7:19:12
better said here is the first alpha of the port made of r3 alpha... It's a tone of alpha that is ridiculous ...

I remember Carl wanted to change rebol name by something else more meaning full for IT people... We should have listen to him and choose to rename rebol by alpha !

:)))

shadwolf
16-Apr-2013 7:54:08
and for the people that asks me to help r3 android with concrete contributions I will say "okay where are the source codes?"

As for the people saying I can do my own port to linux and macosX. I will reply you miss the point there. It is not about how I want it to be done it is about how we can do it the way we have to do a minimal coding effort to pass r3gui from win32 to linux to macOSX or to anything else.

Noone ever explained what are the whole involved files nor explained what are the interactions and how to make a relevant rebolish dialect out of a set of C functions.

We don't have a proper design explained to us to lead the way we will develop the things. we don't know what is the basic ground C part that is needed to write.

Sure I can try to extract from the source all that but that will be my interpretation of something I have a limited understanding upon since I m not the one writing it.

Example you have area-tc the code is readable by everyone it is abandonned to public domaine. In the source code we documented as much we could. is it so that it was retaken and that an awsome integrated code editor is born out of it or even a better polished version of it? no ...

It is though a complex code I one of the main author and the initial designer of the area-tc content have difficulties to understand every interaction in that code. the segments of that code involving parse are what make rebol unique and they are so few in the world to fully understand it and be able to maintain that code ( optimise and debug it). That ambitious project was since the begining though as a communitary project to show the greatness of rebol think of it a rude rendering engine to colorise dynamically written takes less than a thousand lines of rebol code. What the community wanted was a version of it made in r3gui.

Problem r3gui was bugged (to such extends that RMA said 2 years later that it was impossible to proceed with r3gui development while they didn't have the full source code) and the way r3gui organise the code makes for me even more difficult to write something already diffucult.

To illustrate that point I will go this example: http://development.saphirion.com/experimental/dt-01.r

what does it do? it is a succession of random math based animations to test r3gui/draw(agg) performance.

we can see that the code is not very friendly to read. we have a box for the image normal we have a different box for the window and the surface we have a box for the function to actually draw something in that surface we have the set of inscrtuction to show the window with the surface and start the drawing animations on it.

In my opinion the difference betwin r3gui and r2/VID is the same as C and JAVA ... you exploded your unit of code into tiny ity bity bunchy of code that force you to constently scroll up and down the code to see how fit the related parts.

Arnold
17-Apr-2013 0:30:06
Completely agree with you on these points Shadwolf!

The vagueness of where all the code hangs out, all those cvm's with steep learning curves I am not waiting nor willing to master.

No or little explanation what the code is for and where people are taking it to.

Taking to Android may seem a good path, but if you do not have a smartphone, let alone any other Android device, this brings nothing at all, just a burden of history and limitations to other platform development, to which you cannot get involved in because there is zero intent of letting others contribute, no path to go, no plan to go by, no explanation how to contribute unless you are a guru already, no easy tasks to perform or tutorials to follow along.

There is a reason why even seasoned developers drop out of the Rebol world.

I know this critique is a hard one coming from me, but serious action is required to keep everyone on board and to get good programmers to join. It is too early to go shout aloud about R3 and get the whole world in at this time, but is never too early to get some more developers.

A first step could be claiming some space on rebol.com or rebol.org to blog progression and host tutorials. Get a youtube channel. Etc etc etc.

MaxV
23-Apr-2013 1:41:19
Hello,

I started to explain rebol sources on this wiki:

https://github.com/angerangel/r3bazaar/wiki/Source-explained

Any help would be very appreciated! :-)

shadwolf
25-Apr-2013 7:21:33
as for instance I see waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more interrest into a r3 arm-linux for raspberry pi.

Yes ... a raspberry pi is more or less the same hardware than an average android smartphone. But bellow there pure linux ... and this my friends makes the whole difference. Android = laggy messy bunch of crap that boots in 5 minutes hangs with no apparent reason and reboot in your face for no apparent reason. whatever version you use I used android 1.8 on pc acer notebook it was stable and fast because there was no apps on it ! I used android 2.3.6 android 3.0 on tegra based tablets and android 4.2.1 on smartphones and all of them have the recurent common traits. laggy, messy, crashy.

By porting r3gui to linux and armlinux you will enter a world where there is a heavy coding / scripting culture. And as you will have to compete against python, tcl/tk, C, C-variants, java, perl etc-languages then obviously to be notice you will have to sharpen r3gui and show that it offers better faster and simplier way to do stuff.

Because that is what r3gui is about doing stuffs !

shadwolf
25-Apr-2013 7:23:07
MAXV great initiative ! I invite everyone to participate at that effort and ideally if Mr Sassenrath could over look the code explainations and give it the overlook touch that would be perfect !

Arnold
26-Apr-2013 2:21:33
I am not amazed by the speed of my Raspberry Pi under Linux yet LOL!

There seems to be some movement in handing over some control over the major REBOL sites to a group of developers now.

So support MaxV in his newest initiative and I call on everyone to join his effort! Hoping it will soon be a part of the real rebol site (or at least will be linked from it).

Pierre
1-May-2013 7:42:45
What a mess...

It took me a great while to read through forums, to (try to) understand what happened to the Rebol microcosm, since I left it (because it was not free), back in 2006. At this time, everything was so simple, efficient, in Rebol. Éternels regrets...

And just the title of this blog entry leaves me quite speechless...

I just took a look at the git trees from Red and the official rebol3: no comment...

MaxV, I just forked your git, to see what's going on out there. Thanks again for your initiative, I think it is more than welcome!

But when I look at the tree, it seems that there was NO more merge on https://github.com/rebol/r3 after https://github.com/rebolsource/r3 forked from it??

Does this mean that https://github.com/rebolsource/r3 is now THE reference rebol3 source? And, subsequently, that https://github.com/rebol/r3 has been abandoned since February, 26th this year?? Am I missing something??

I totally agree on many comments above. Maybe we do not need a PHP-based forum and wiki, though: Nick's forum (simple and rebol-powered), could also be a pretty good tool for us, rebol community.

shadwolf
6-May-2013 11:35:58
Pierre: On est toujours ouvert au dialogue nous :) Bon retour parmis les rebolers et http://www.digicamsoft.com/cgi-bin/rebelBB.cgi t accueillera les bras ouverts.

OK so for Pierre and probably others a quick sumary of last actions:

Unlike what Mr Sassenrath said and promised during the two month free licence talkings on this blog his current involvement in rebol3 as expected is near zero.

We have two important discussions going on in this blog "Making rebol3 a 3.0?" I am not sure I understand at first the goal of this post. At first I though it was Mr Sassenrath´s guidance and suggestions to help people fork devs to reach step stones that will bring rebol3 out of the alpha 8 years stage... It´s been so much in alpha that most people lost all hope about having it someday reaching 3.0 or even a beta :). In fact that topic was to stimulate a debate and an exchange of ideas around the defining of the work to get a 3.0. Actually about that topic no descision or closure have been made. It simply got hung in the air and nothing else.

Then we have this topic asking for ideas about rebol graphic integrated library. Same intent leads to same results. As for me for example this topic is declined in two very important sub topic:

frist : How to build a rebolish graphic dialect how are the main keys to get the rebol effect. AS for my own personal taste I already find r3gui less powerfull and more blured than r2VID was,

Second: What is the best way to have easy and fast adaptation of r3gui to any gui able OS?

Same as previous topic there is no particular debat on that topic no particular ideas proposed and no particular ground work acheived. So the topic hangs in the air too...

what we see with rebol3 free licence is what we already could see those past 10 years. The complete unablility of the rebol community to focus efforts, share perspectives and have the same agendas.

So each fork bring it´s own personal way of seeing important things to be added to rebol3 and eventually one day Mr Sassenrath will merge those forks into a rebol3 official version.

Arnold
6-May-2013 22:33:25
"and eventually one day Mr Sassenrath will merge those forks into a rebol3 official version."

That part must be happening in a parallel universe. Unfortunately we cannot or little choose into which parallel universe our lifes are heading.

-pekr-
7-May-2013 7:27:54
yes yes yes, and in the meantime shadwolf rants here, Cyphre releases yet another progress with Android port, this times with native keyboard input, improved WAIT and added clipping:

http://cyphre.mysteria.cz/tests/r3-gui-droid-3.jpg

Pierre (Ch)
8-May-2013 14:27:55
Shad: merci, http://www.digicamsoft.com/cgi-bin/rebelBB.cgi m'a déjà accueilli les bras ouverts! ;o)

Concerning things which "got hung in the air", I have a kind of feeling that many ideas/suggestions, etc. end up like that, in this Rebolish microcosm, and maybe even more on this blog...

Cyphre's progress on Android is excellent, I tried it on my android device. But when I tried to actually type some real code, in order to do something useful, I quickly realised that a smartphone may not be the most comfortable tool to edit code, debug, browse through pages of code... Alt-tabbing between a real text editor and the Rebol3 console is not as handy as on a "real" computer..

In other words: Android is now a major actor in today's computing world. Porting rebol and a GUI on it is certainly a good bet for the near future. But if one wants to make real apps for Android, he still has to code/try/debug them on a decent computer. Nothing wrong with this. Except that, now, one cannot use anything else than windows, if I understand well, to develop GUIs using saphirion's tools.

In the company where I work, windows use is forbidden... Only GNU/linuxes, some BSD, a little Mac. Now, I'm stuck... :-(

No worries, I'll wait patiently. Or maybe I should try to implement the GUI for GNU/Linux?... It frightens me somehow... And someone else may be doing it right now, silently??... :-/

-pekr-
9-May-2013 0:13:49
Pierre. Red is in its very early stage of development, but the strategy is radically oriented towards mobile platforms. Just few days ago, ability to generate shared libraries was added for all Red backends. That means, you can use it for and under Linux too.

This feature is needed in order to get us on mobile platforms. Just recently, first screenshot showing initial implementation of JAVA/JNI bridge was posted:

http://static.red-lang.org/awt-jni.png

Bridge fro iOS (Objective-C) is going to be added too. Red has slightly different strategy though - mostly to bind to native GUIs. Well, I would welcome View being ported to Red lately too, but this is current situation

As for R3GUI - I believe Cyphre will improve it. Recently guys are talking about scaling and independent resolution format. Cyphre's work is really impressive and surely is going to improve.

So - simply put - even if our microcosm is rather small, there are things happening ...

shadwolf
15-May-2013 11:35:33
PierreCh I love your company !!! Banning windows out what a great commitement!

when I say r3 on android for what purpose that is exactly what I explaine. Soft keyboard to write rebol code is a pain in the ...neck. Keyboard coding doesn´t fit touch screen. just doing a REBOL [] takes you a whole minute on android... Since we will not have a touch screen ready IDE I don´t see much the point.

Thing is now a day the best rebol comminuty as offer is yet another broken toy (r3 android). That is sad. And all I ask you is to organise things to show that you care and that is not just a hobby for you.

Meanwhile nothing is done for a r3 gui in macosx, unix/linux. But r3 core works fine.

pekr I rant here because unlike altme and other forums here it is read by someone, somewhere, somehow ... like you :)

shadwolf
15-May-2013 11:38:09
pekr? any idea about any solution to this topic?

no?... how sad...

shadwolf
15-May-2013 11:40:51
perk... how comme in a rebol official blog in a topic about rebol3 graphics you start your intervention advocating for RED?...

Serriously pathetic. And I don´t want Cyphre to decide the future of rebol...

shadwolf
15-May-2013 12:25:40
for graphical we need a light weight, portable, and state of the art graphics

I ran into guichan but it was abandonned in 2009 it could be a good base since it is opengl, sdl, allegro based.

it could simply be an example for developping our own library to build on top of portable libraries.

As for AGG I don´t know if it is ported to linux or if it would represent a big work to port it.

Rocket Science 101
16-May-2013 12:30:38
Real men use Windows... Script kiddies have to pay Microsoft to use Android ;o)

http://www.techdrivein.com/2011/07/list-of-companies-that-pay-royalties-to.html

------------

IUP is a mature gui/graphical toolkit, written in C and though targeted for Lua, has been ported to other languages (Chicken Scheme).

http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUP_(software)

"""The IUP Portable User Interface is a computer software development kit that provides a portable, scriptable toolkit for GUI building using C and Lua. This allows rapid, zero-compile prototyping and refinement of deployable GUI applications.

It provides this functionality by binding Lua with its C/C++ code, or simply writing C to the API. It supports calling native Windows graphics, native Motif/Lesstif or GTK+ elements, or the developers' own CanvasDraw elements from the Lua scripts or natively in a C/C++ application."""

Anonymous
16-May-2013 22:16:12
Kudos for Rocket Science for that great suggestion
(tough it may not be what he meant...) :
Use Lua! A mature language with a mature gui toolkit.

How long will REBOL the Headless Chicken survive?

"No wind is favorable for who does not know where he goes."
("Ningún viento es favorable para quien no sabe a dónde va.")
-Séneca

Another anonymous
17-May-2013 1:27:28
Any wind is favorable to who is flexible in destination. For the dogmatic one-direction fixated ones, they must wait till favourable circumstances come, and if those occur (at all) it may be too late.

About all suggestions of other languages: they are only old wine in new barrels.

Rocket Science 101
17-May-2013 15:41:33
I mean the addition of IUP to a functional programming language (like Chicken Scheme) appears to be straight foreward. Rebol is a functional programming language, correct?

http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/iup

IUP seems to be very powerful, yet simple enough for casual programmers to use.

Gallery of Widgets: http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/en/gallery.html

Screen shots: http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/en/screenshots.html

Rocket Science 101
17-May-2013 15:44:01
Also IUP's Documentation NavigationToolkit 'WebBook' is available as well to tame Rebol's documentation. Then users could have a working copy of the docs without needing to use PHP or a server.

http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/webbook/

http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/webbook/en/guide.html

WebBook allows you to create a navigation structure for your HTML pages. All you have to do is edit a configuration file and add your pages to the right place. You do not need any special CGI or Java configuration to run it, and you can use it without any WWW server. Simply open the "index.html" file.

-pekr-
20-May-2013 2:14:56
Shadwolf - AGG is abandoned by its author, but it surely is ported to many platforms, including Linux of course.

As for Anonymous or Rocket Science posts - we are here because we want to be here, and because we want to use Rebol or Rebol alikes, easy as that.

Of course we know about Lua, as well as many other languages out-there. there's always an option to switch to something else, but no point in doing so nowadays, as we got our tool being opensourced ...

Rocket Science 101
23-May-2013 11:02:41
IUP is a consise C GUI/Graphics library that does not require the size/complexity of QT or wxWidgets to deploy or program.

The intent is also to stimulate outsiders to want to contribute to Rebol. It provides hope that something tangible is being done with Rebol. And it pushes Rebol into becoming a serious platform for business, science, education etc. The IUP screen shots show what Rebol 3 could and should become.

The world does not need a Rebol fanboy version of "Angry Birds"...

MaxV
24-May-2013 4:28:29
If you are really interested in developing Rebol3:
  1. create an account on GitHub
  2. fork https://github.com/angerangel/r3bazaar
  3. pull you changes or use it in any other way (bugs, wiki)

otherwise

  1. create an account oh http://rebol.informe.com
  2. add or modify the wiki
  3. use all other features of the site (forum, blog, image gallery)

There aren't other ways, there aren't other active sources, unfortunately this is the last free way remained.

All other comments are just sterile flames, that rebol development doesn't need.

Luis.
30-May-2013 6:28:48
To resume any kind of production with R3 (whichever fork) it would need to implement the Schemes and a simple cross platform GUI, otherwise R2 is the only option for me at the moment. Personally, the implementation of the built in Datatypes such as email and url are what really distinguishes R2/3/Red from other languages.

Cheers,

Luis.

Luis.
30-May-2013 6:55:43
Ooops! Red doesn't have those Datatypes...

Cheers,

Luis.

Pierre
30-May-2013 15:30:47
... yet. Wait and see...
Luis.
31-May-2013 2:55:28
Hmmm. I don't see it in the Red v2 Wish List and neither in the Red Spec Document page where it lists 'Possible Datatypes'.

When these options are not even considered (which is what it appears to be) then I can't see it as an option.

Cheers,

Luis.

Andreas
2-Jun-2013 5:46:43
(at)MaxV: "There aren't other ways, there aren't other active sources, unfortunately this is the last free way remained."

Well, fortunately, there still are other venues.

https://github.com/rebolsource/r3 is an active and community-maintained branch of mainline R3. We happily review and work with pull requests against either rebolsource/r3 or rebol/r3, as well as patches sent via other venues (such as the Rebol mailing list on Google Groups: https://groups.google.com/group/rebol).

Contributions are very welcome. For ideas on what to work, just review the issue database for R3 on CureCode:

http://curecode.org/rebol3/view-tickets.rsp

(We'll hopefully soon be able to migrate issue tracking for R3 over to Github for improved visibility. Help with that would also be more than welcome, so if you are interested, be sure to get in touch.)

If you want to chat, join us on StackOverflow chat or send a message to the Google Groups mailing list mentioned above:

http://chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/291/rebol-and-red

shadwolf
19-Jun-2013 10:40:28
but once again ... the problem is the lack of federation and consensus. Try to understand my point!

I will not spend a minute code a stuff that will please only myself and be of any use only for me!

We have to get out rebol community of the selfishness self centred my face only purpose kind of developement that it is stuck since the begining.

Some uncool examples of that: rebgui it was 99% done by Ashley Trutter for its own selfish needs and interrest has his vision gradually went off what the community expected since the community didn t supported the default integration of that lib into rebol/view and since r3 total revamp was one sided decided by Carl Then rrebgui gradually was abandonned.

We have someone that made a selfish fork of rebgui for his own interrest and few apart him knows about that fork.

This is not the way things should be done you can t ask people to spend time and energy on things that will lead nowhere.

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