REBOL Technologies

Comments on: Calling REBOL Rebol?

Carl Sassenrath, CTO
REBOL Technologies
14-Dec-2012 6:49 GMT

Article #0525
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It's been suggested that we no longer capitalize the word REBOL.

Originally it was capitalized because it's an acronym. Each letter meant something.

However, R3 open source marks a clean break from the past.

So, I could go for calling it Rebol now.

What do you think? Make your case.

75 Comments

Comments:

Scot
14-Dec-2012 23:04:48
As long as I can start my scripts with

REBOL []

I'm fine. I think most people type Rebol now anyway. After all we've been Rebolers and Reboling for years. :) When I want it done fast I rebol it. I'm reboling my analysis tools for my dissertation. Can't understand why the spellchecker keeps giving it a red underline.

:)

Carl Sassenrath
14-Dec-2012 23:10:21
Hi Scot, looks about right.

Glad to hear about the dissertation. Saw your email. Good stuff.

Carl Read
14-Dec-2012 23:47:50
Will you change how it's pronounced to match how it's writ as well? ;)
HRO
14-Dec-2012 23:57:37
Trying to imagine the header of this web page with lowercases... "Rebol" looks terrible and misses the Bull's Eye!

Seriously speaking, I prefer REBOL, because its an acronym.

(When coding in REBOL, I use uppercase with my variables because it helps me unravel function calls... sort of an visual anchor. Keeping REBOL's name uppercase gives it that same sense of order and importance.)

tomc
15-Dec-2012 0:21:05
I think it is great because I seldom if ever used the prescribed capitalization. I never agreed to help rebol look silly.
Brian Hawley
15-Dec-2012 2:17:40
I prefer Rebol - Fork convinced me. All-caps language names mark you as being stuck in the '90s or earlier, at least to modern eyes. Even Fortran isn't all-caps anymore and that was definitely an acronym at first. All-caps is an acronym; mixed-case or proper-case is a name, and names are nicer.

I have a little additional bias though: I almost never use the caps-lock, and don't touch-type, so that means I type all-caps stuff by holding down the shift key. Too much gets a bit painful. YMMV.

Arie van Wingerden
15-Dec-2012 2:30:36
I prefer REBOL capitalized ;-)
meijeru
15-Dec-2012 4:19:04
I prefer Rebol as a name. The compulsory script heading REBOL[] could be checked in a case-insensitive way (this is probably already the case), so as to conserve the existing s/w base.
Giuseppe Chillemi
15-Dec-2012 7:35:08
I vote for Rebol. I have always written it this way. There are no other reason of any kind.
Steven White
15-Dec-2012 8:17:13
I like REBOL because I spent 40 years bonding with COBOL. My vote should be weighted in accordance with my "coefficient of obsolescence."
Nick
15-Dec-2012 10:57:31
I forced myself to get used to REBOL, but I agree that it feels very dated. When writing publicly, Rebol feels better.
Fork
15-Dec-2012 11:22:30
Also, due to REBOL being a case-insensitive language, it's handy to call out code in plaintext mediums using caps. So if I wanted to complain about APPEND/ONLY and say it should be biased the other way and have the exception be APPEND/INTO, it reads pretty well without resorting to a fixed-width font. But if you capitalize a term we say a lot such as REBOL then it kind of ruins the trick for calling out code...just look at this paragraph for an example. :-/

Note that my logo proposal "embraces and extends" the classic black and white logo...only suggests getting rid of the white R in the red square. I'm not suggesting the logotype change, except possibly to curve a little differently around the O to match the 3D variant and excise similarity to the "Target" store icon.

I don't feel there's a big cognitive dissonance problem in the logotype being in all caps while conversationally writing the language name in mixed case as Rebol. Looks just fine in my opinion:

http://hostilefork.com/shared/rebol/rebol_rebooted_3d.png

Carl Read
15-Dec-2012 12:50:41
Fork's argument that an all-caps REBOL conflicts with when you're highlighting text in prose is an excellent argument for making "Rebol" the default casing style. So I'm for it now too.

And I've liked your logo since I first saw it Fork. [O] ;)

Asohen
16-Dec-2012 6:04:49
REBOL may be an acronyme, but for me it is a name: Rebol. It is spoken like an usual word, not spelled letter by letter. Also, capitalized words within text appear unnecessarily "loud". So, in my opinion "Rebol" is better.
Luke
16-Dec-2012 6:46:50
Rebol please.

As elsewhere, ALLCAPS IS AKIN TO RAISING YOUR VOICE

No-one spells out the acronym, so it is a proper name.

Kaj
16-Dec-2012 7:42:23
I guess IBM should change their name to Ibm then.
Henrik
16-Dec-2012 9:20:27
I don't mind REBOL capitalized. The problem in the past was that the name would be plastered all over the place, making it annoying to look at.
HRO
16-Dec-2012 15:40:07
ALLCAPS IS AKIN TO RAISING YOUR VOICE
Important text is normally set in capitals, italics, or small caps to make it visually relevant, not because anybody is shouting at you. Acronyms are also normally set in Caps. Then again, nobody is shouting at you.

Another reason I prefer REBOL is because, in spanish, "Rebol" is a kind sewing.

Arnold
16-Dec-2012 23:10:18
I prefer Rebol, but you could allow REBOL as well on historic grounds

* because it started out as an acronym and
* refers to early REBOL versions R1 and R2 and
* the name looked like COBOL, used in many many businesses even to this day

and the previous Spanish slang argument though Google translate does not give this kind of translation.

(at)Kaj, more modern would be iBm

Have you claimed iRebol for rolling out Rebol on iOS yet?

The link to the main site in the footer should be written as http://rebol.com/ not WWW.REBOL.COM

Carl's name should be in all caps though ;)

-pekr-
17-Dec-2012 1:06:18
No matter how I try to look at it, and knowing historically many ppl felt bad about caps, I never felt that way. Yes, WWW.REBOL.COM looks weird, but REBOL seems ok to me. In fact, much better than Rebol, which is easily lost in the text. I would let ppl choose how they want to aproach it ....
Frank
17-Dec-2012 4:32:20
Relative Expression Based Object Language : REBOL R.E.B.O.L. Rebol rebol

It's up to you. Just keep in mind the meaning. :)

Ladislav
17-Dec-2012 4:35:54
Seconding Nick: I forced myself to get used to REBOL, but I agree that it feels very dated. When writing publicly, Rebol feels better (like a name), more modern and typographically more appropriate for the reasons Fork mentioned.
Ladislav
17-Dec-2012 4:48:57
At Fork: I like the 3D logo. Just two questions.

Do you think the "rebooted" characterization is necessary? (I think that it does not improve the logo in any significant way).

What is the meaning of the three vertical ||| at the tail of the 2D logo?

Ladislav
17-Dec-2012 4:53:31
Answering myself: "it means 3 you ignorant". However, it did not invoke that feeling immediately, which looks like a problém to me.
Fork
17-Dec-2012 10:52:11
(at) Ladislav: The logo itself is something I feel very strongly is "right". It would be even better if given a treatment by a professional 3D modeler who had better software than SketchUp, which is all I've got or know how to use. I've granted Carl all rights to use it and protect it as a mark of Rebol Technologies, as with the name "Rebol".

But I just made the "rebooted poster" as sort of a brainstorm for a rallying campaign. We were discussing slogans and marketing on DocBase...and where Rebol manages to grip the imagination of the public, and where it doesn't seem to as much.

Testing is important. If your website says "Gurus building the future" and people find that arrogant, well...is there something else you can put there that you'd like just as well (or better), and wouldn't put people off? I don't know if the "Version 3: it's Rebol. rebooted" accompanying the logo is good campaign or not, but generating possibilities and testing the psychology of it is important.

I've won more people over by starting them with the notion that "everything in Rebol is thought out, that's why the main delimiter for code blocks is brackets...you don't have to have to use shift on most keyboards to type it". They go "I never thought of it that way" and then I point out "asymmetric delimiters for strings handles cases much better than having two frustrating single-quote and double-quote alternatives you just wind up churning between and escaping anyway".

I've yet to have anyone really give much of a care about how big the thing is until *after* they understand what it could do. So it's a much better finisher to mention the size than an opener. If you open with that it's quickly: "Your language is weird, Lua is smaller and I can understand it, plus I have a big hard drive and how fast is it?"

So being logical about marketing is good. Not capitalizing the name and ditching the white R in a Red circle is a start. My logo invokes the brackets, which is good as they and braces are one of those first good hooks that seems to catch about "hey, this is designed really from the ground up by practical concerns, tell me more..."

Fork
17-Dec-2012 11:04:22
Oh, and regarding the [I I I], that was just me being kind of playful in contrast to the [O]. Also demonstrating how I thought the Target Logo could be excised and the brackets drawn out by un-sharpening the edges cut out by the circle in the classic B&W Rebol Logo.

The III idea doesn't have to be one that makes an appearance, or it might be used in a very minor context for just a moment in an animation as it collapses back into the normal logo. Just ideas.

But the thing is that it's not just a single graphic, it's a design *system*...and a recognizable "brand" (at least AFAIK, and certainly in languages). It's something you can hand a graphic designer who is trying to build variants in marketing materials, and they'll have a field day. So as you go down the page and you're reading about the notion of flexible series in Rebol, the layout could include something like this:

http://www.rebol.net/w/images/b/bd/Rebol-metaphor.png

-pekr-
17-Dec-2012 11:49:58
Fork - what is your background in marketing and desing? Your logo is not bad, but it's 3D nature is something I am not sure about. You describe that the design needs deep study - so, please, show me your portfolio :-) Well, whatever - I am just not sure, we need to put so much emphasis in the change of logo.

But who knows - if you consider it being more of a new era rather than continuation of its development, well then - but then also new and improved design of website should appear (along with support forum) ...

Brian Tiffin
17-Dec-2012 12:01:31
Like any proper name, I prefer to follow and respect the wishes of the namer, both in spelling and pronunciation.

I've gotten pretty used to rebel for pronunciation, REBOL for the proper spelling and using rebol as slang for a REBOL developer, but any of those things can change.

Common consensus isn't required, just the stated wishes of the namer, in my humble opinion.

Ladislav
17-Dec-2012 13:46:57
"Your logo is not bad, but it's 3D nature is something I am not sure about." - My feeling is exactly the opposite: using 3D logo "automatically" communicates it is Rebol3. I love that. It (for me) even makes those "rebooted", etc. words unnecessary.
Nick
17-Dec-2012 16:10:24
About the logo, a change would certainly help refresh the appearance of Rebol. Fork, I like your logo. My reaction is based purely on aesthetics - the image comes across to me as a more modern version of the old logo.
-pekr-
17-Dec-2012 19:30:54
Ladislav - how does the 3D nature relates to REBOL3? Because of "3" being in there? What happens, when REBOL4 comes out then one day - do we change the logo again? :-)
Ladislav
17-Dec-2012 19:49:28
"What happens, when REBOL4 comes out then one day - do we change the logo again?" - why not? Rebol4, when available, may well deserve a new logo, similarly as the 2D logo of Rebol2 can now "coexist" with the 3D logo of Rebol3. (4D logo is, in principle, possible, in case you want to know...) Why exactly am I supposed to know now whether a new logo will be created or not, and how does it relate to the discussed transition from R2 to R3?
Carl Read
17-Dec-2012 23:44:28
http://www.rebol.net/w/images/b/bd/Rebol-metaphor.png

"For instance, a Series!"

I also thought Turing Machine. (Except for the three zeros in the inner block.)

Fork
18-Dec-2012 1:06:29
(at Pekr) It's good and productive to have challenge, and I'm quite ready to get behind other people's ideas if they're good. (If not, I'd be out inventing my own interpreter instead of glomming onto Rebol, yes?)

As for my background in graphics, I started it as a hobby a while ago. And just like on StackOverflow or Rebol AltMe or wherever, some of my early efforts were ripped apart by people who knew a thing or two I didn't, but weren't good at giving constructive feedback. Yet buried in their comments was a chance for learning the aspects they were reacting to, and I got better by listening.

I think I've made a bit of great stuff, some good stuff, some meh stuff, and bad stuff. But that's irrelevant when I've been composing a years-long-now argument through explanation and never an argument from authority! I don't have any motivation to improve it because no one can tell me what's wrong with it, and your "it's 3-D" isn't a valid criticism of the concept because it's a motif with interchangeable parts right up to the classic logo. Is the favicon 3-D?

http://www.rebol.net/wiki/REBOL_logo#Favicon

I point out it is instantly recognizable and doesn't look like any computer language logo I know of. In fact, I don't really know of a logo of anything else it looks like (nor does Google Image Search), besides a cropped white on black mutation of the logo for Target stores. And I think that's okay if one is conscious to excise it by being less sharp on the circle cutoff.

I've made my points but if you are serious about "Rebol 3 so it's 3-D" then you are (I am sorry to be brutally honest) showing a naivete about the design argument. It's kind of the equivalent of someone rejecting a conception because it's a color they don't like...without realizing they simply don't like the color. And maybe you don't like 3-D things or maybe just not that angle, but there's a deeper suggestion at work.

Still: intuition of any designer can't substitute for data with the relevant market. It only guides, and I challenge you to find a quote where I said not to consider or testing alternatives. Month or two ago I tried to encourage DocKimbel to use a variant for Red to bring them into "the family" that he rejected...and he explained why it wasn't a fit for what he had in his mind. I listened and changed how I viewed it, and it led me to something he liked...and I also felt it helped me "concretely" model just what the difference between Rebol and Red is and will become.

As with the Rebol to REBOL debate: the biggest mistake is to have an absence of awareness that the distinction and the choice exists. (Isn't this what Rebol is kind of "about", as with braces and brackets, "awareness"?)

-pekr-
18-Dec-2012 2:59:50
(at)Ladislav - it is simply related. The information that new proposed logo is just for R3, is new to me. I did not know, that R2 logo would coexist and I am not sure Fork meant it that way. And that's why I think, that if new logo should be the general Rebol product family logo, your "using 3D logo "automatically" communicates it is Rebol3" does not work here. But no offense, I am not against some change ...

(at)Fork - it was not me, who related Rebol3 to 3D aspect. And yes, I think that angle or 3D aspect could be played further with a bit. I asked you about the portfolio, because quite often I do work with some of top Czech designers and yes, I am quite able to understand some deep aspects of the design. So, before you call someone naive in ability to understand the desing, here's plenty of examples I have good understanding for. And those are logos used by real companies:

http://www.loganamiru.cz/reference.html?velkybutton

If Carl likes your logo, he is free to use anything he likes, but for me even the original Rebol (with the target O) works quite well. Yours is surely interesting, and could be used as a favicon, but I am still not sure entirely removing Rebol or at least "R" from the design is a good move. You imo degrated logo, to just an icon - I would like to see it combined with the product name, Rebol Technologies name, subclaim /if any/, weblinks, simply in various variants. When I e.g. choosed the logo for my 2zone, I wanted also related stuff like header paper, envelope, business card, presentation, to be outlined too:

http://www.xidys.com/pekr/2zone_media_logotypes/

btw - ppl love the concept, the logo, the design, the project, and my "two zones" became immediate success (locally).

MaxV
18-Dec-2012 4:26:15
>> Rebol = REBOL == true
Fork
18-Dec-2012 8:40:40
(at Pekr) Note that I *did* ask that we not bring in non-Rebol logos or "arguments from authority" to the discussion! But--since you did, and I am a design/intention geek...

First: The wall-of-icons you show are not designs in the sense I'm speaking. They are juxtapositions. That grid is exactly (even the scale and layout) like the sites selling premade templates online for $75 (or $250 if you want a "royalty exclusive license"). 99% of the time the graphics were drawn independently from the brand name...and then they're sorted by category or keyword. If you're a nature product the client picks one that looks "naturey" and slaps their type on it, bam: there's your "brand".

Is it functional? I guess. So is PHP for some people, and it's logo may in fact look like a blue pill for a reason. (Note: Anyone think that design of bad things might be purposefully done as to make them exactly bad, as a teaching tool? God might be working out both sides of the equation...) But deeper hooks are better.

Second: Your 2zone logotype is completely broken from the logo; the 2 is at a different scale and separated too much, even by color in some cases. So it glosses to the eye as a company called "zone media" with a thing next to it, and not "2zone media". Hand someone a business card w/only a second to look at it and they'll say "Oh, so how long have you worked for zone media"?

To be clear--I'm not trying to be mean. And I certainly would not say you don't have the technical skill to design a great logo for Rebol. It looks like you can work the tools and do a clean web layout, and this page needs you badly.

Yet I'm not going to show you my non-Rebol designs or why I think they're great or how they could be improved...because the thread is the Rebol name and brand. I don't plan to budge on: the all caps has to go, the red R logo has to go, the website needs to be clean and compelling. Hopefully we can agree on that much! From there, my mind is open: so bring me the best ideas in Prague and if they're better than mine...I'll be thrilled.

I've simply set the bar. It's like when you try to go to dinner and someone suggests a restaurant and you go "nah"...you can't say no without show me better. Let's go. And then let's define a test market, sample it, and find the weaknesses and strengths.

Fork
18-Dec-2012 9:09:34
sigh...how about I show you one design, but only to make a point. That is: how long you work on something and rationalize it doesn't have much to do with how it will be received by the human brain.

I've spent weeks or months on some designs, but this business card I knocked off in an evening for a [girl]friend's company:

http://metaeducation.com/media/shared/pekr/rabbit-front.png

(She had the idea of coordinating local businesses and hotels to put advertising in the hotel rooms so that in-town visitors would know where to go. An idea that might have worked pre-Internet, maybe. But, with cell phones and such it's a flop.)

Anyway, I was just showing her how to draw on the computer. I looked at some rabbit shapes, I didn't like the literalism of the animal for a logo. Stretched a piece of rabbit clip-art upside down on a whim and was looking at the positive and negative space...and I saw a wave or a cliff. Threw a little guy in there to be the eye of an upside-down rabbit. Reworked the geometry for a while to please my inner grid-structure demon...and was done quickly. It wasn't a serious project anyway, her idea wasn't working out.

Conceptually I found it vacuous. She liked Alice in Wonderland and had chosen the name for that reason, but that doesn't really have anything to do with hotel advertising if you ask me. The pocketwatch started as clip art too, though I had to redraw it. I tried to rationalize the whole thing as "well, what about...having a limited amount of time in town, or getting information at the time you need it. Heck, the rabbit had a watch in Alice in Wonderland, let's use it."

At least it wasn't as literally banal as an actual white rabbit. And I felt it met my standards for a business card that if it were on the ground someone would pick it up to look at it. One evening to draw it and work out the back with the contact info--here you go, have fun.

But I've worked MUCH harder on other things that I think make a lot more sense. So I do get kind of mad when I'm showing people my portfolio and non-designers glaze over a lot but consistently are drawn to that one I did in ONE night and go "ooooh, I like THAT one". The designers are too. It's a thorn in my side.

Yet a reminder: all the rationale I might have for the a design isn't worth much if something else comes along that works. I wrote a long DocBase rationale for my Rebol icon and why it should work, but if something else comes along and provably is working even without reasoning...the data wins.

The Zaz
18-Dec-2012 9:31:18
Fork = Reichart? Sounds familiar.
Brian Hawley
18-Dec-2012 9:41:57
(at) Zaz: Fork = Brian (and not me or Tiffin), friend of Reichart IIRC. Much fun.
Pierre
18-Dec-2012 12:59:38
REBOL or Rebol, I don't care much.

In my mother language (French), capitalization is not so "severe" as in written English. It just emphasizes, it is not like raising your voice or shouting. So, frenchely, I don't mind either Rebol, rebol or REBOL. And I imagine that it must be different, in other cultures.

It reminds me of my former employer, a large public company. Its name was originally an acronym; but its activities somehow drifted away from its origins. Then a bright think tank decided to rename the company lowercase, so that everyone could totally forget all its origins. This was applied, along with a fantastic new graphic chart, totally relooked. All of us, employees, obeyed silently, and we all wrote the company's name lowercase. And spending hours moving .doc to the new templates (weighing Mbs and Mbs, instead of Kbs...).

Then, a few weeks after, all of a sudden, an order came to write the company's name in UPPERCASE... The big thinkers had realised that the lowercase name had become totally invisible in large text paragraphs. So we all obeyed again. Silently. Almost.

Concerning the logo: I find it pretty, simple. In two words, I like it.

I also like the reboot! What about: It's Rebol rebooted => It's Rebol rebolted! It's Rebol rebooted and Rebolted

A bit more seriously: concerning the name of the rebol executable, I find it quite unpleasant to have a bare "r3". I find it unconfortable, and quite meaningless, IMHO. I would rather prefer that the default name would be "rebol3". Or, simply, "rebol" (but lowercase, for unix's sake). It find it much more ergonomic and expressive, on the command line.

Note that this is just a small detail.

Pierre
18-Dec-2012 13:27:17
Concerning the logo, maybe the three vertical bars symbolizing the 3 in latin could be written more like the latin numbers used to be written.

For example, it is more like an I instead of a |.

I think it would make it more readable as a 3: III vs. |||

Just a suggestion.

Fork
18-Dec-2012 23:11:57
For purposes of brand identification and protection, I have already argued that the default build process produce something NOT called Rebol. Cloning and building should make something clearly identifying itself as being merely Rebol-derived.

(The build process might even sniff for your Git contact info, and instead of directing people to Rebol.com for problems, default to telling users to send problems to the person who built it and apparently gave it to them!)

So by default it should make "binary.exe" (or whatever, r3 is fine too if that's not what the official drops are called). The official build would pass parameters in a way that put the right notices in.

Including the "make official" process in Github is okay. But there should be a warning step saying "Hey if you're not Carl (or acting on Rebol Technologies authority) do not run this variation of make, it's for official drops only.".

MaxV
19-Dec-2012 1:55:14
Gosh! Really 43 comments about this?
>> Rebol = REBOL

== true

-pekr-
19-Dec-2012 2:42
Fork, some of your claims are nearly kind of arrogant. Dhdesign is good and respected design company here. Your claim that they sell premade logo is completly wrong, but understandable, as you don't read Czech language - those are real client logos. Sure, they sell some general ones too, and there's plenty of such templates, but portfolio I linked to are real clients.

Some time ago I thought about paying them to try to recreate REBOL logo, but the thing is, that I am not able to easily define what describes REBOL best. It has many qualities, and to each of us, something else is important. Ditto for Red.

I wish I would have to worry about 2zone as you do. The only thing which makes our clients a problem is - does it read in english, or in Czech? We worked on all aspects for 2-3 months, choosing from multiple designs. 2 means duality, we and you, you and your clients, kind of resembling jing-jang. Noone really had any problems claiming we are zone media, 100% of ppl so far know we are 2 zones.

What I really think is, that you might create an unnecessary push to accept your design. It is not bad by any means! The only thing I claimed is, that it is not only about a logo, but also about the pictogram, the web, the business card, envelopes, presentations, etc. But - RT as a company will not be probably active, so those might not matter much. OTOH, when thinking about the logo, all those aspects should be thought about ahead imo and should simply fit.

As for your rabbit design - very good too, maybe letters are one or two pixels too wide (for me), but the concept works.

My final word to REBOL vs Rebol is, that I would let ppl use what they want. Having some web or magazine article, I would use Rebol, having a program header, or where an emphasize needs to be put in (e.g. quickly visually locating REBOL [] in some website code embedded page), I would let ppl use caps.

But - it is not a strong topic for me, as it is for others, so I will accept what majority selects, being it a REBOL, or Rebol.

Fork
19-Dec-2012 4:25:34
(at Pekr) if I'm being confused in this thread for Reichart, then calling my thoughts/wording arrogant will probably be supported by others (!) Still that doesn't make it any truer than when people say it about him! :-) I'd rather say a self-centric worldview could be a common DNA strand in us...but that's quite different from what the dictionary word "arrogance" means...

...IN FACT, I'd rebut by saying: arguments from authority are the purest form of arrogance. You brought out of left field the success of something called "2zone" into this conversation. Yet our limited readership cannot test or know whether it succeeded or not...and if it did...in-spite-of, or because-of, your design? ("My mother liked the 2zone logo!" Did she? I'm not calling you a liar, but...so what?) I took the bait yet you ignored my feedback which any design school would tell you. But apparently that's no match for your mom liking it... or how successful "everyone" (who?) thought.

No worries. Bygones, again: I'm just trying to show you another perspective. You're passionate and a clearly competent designer; so we should bury this hatchet quickly. And you raised an important point: this isn't about business cards, Carl has stopped trying to sell to investors...it's open now... and directly shipped in fair competition, on the web -- to an audience entirely composed of programmers!

It's web, it's app. So we'll need a favicon, we'll need an app icon. I don't think my favicon can be improved, but the app icon can with that design. Plus Mac icons now go up to 1024x1024 y'know. :-/ I'll put up the (reasonable) amount of money to pay that designer to give us a really polished full cross-platform icon stack IF WE CAN ALL SIGN OFF ON THE LOGO CONCEPTION.

(You're the only naysayer so far, and your naysaying is: "It is not bad by any means!" Last I checked, thats not an insult...)

But a favicon and an app icon and such isn't going to fly the ship home. People who come to Rebol need to:

* Hit the homepage and find a mindblowing matrix of "download it for these platforms" What about 20? 30? 40? It should be MINDBLOWING because of how easy the builds are. Like they say: "If you got it, flaunt it."

* A "try Rebol online" that is persuasive and powerful. Start from "hey what if a language didn't require a shift key to begin a block..." and hit them one point after another. I have done this so many times I've got the script down to a science...but there's a server side involved...and I actually shut down my try Rebol because someone typed in an infinite loop and I got a call from my virtual hosting company going "um, your CPU is pegged"... I dunno if that was intentional or unintentional, but in other hatchet-burying news, maybe Kaj and I need to work this out. I'll even make the front end work in Konqueror, if he still insists.

BTW: Something I did suggest motif-wise that got shot down a bit, that I thought was a less clinical direction, more colorful and fun...Rebol as clay:

http://hostilefork.com/media/blog/the-flexible-series-as-a-core-concept-of-rebol/rebol-clay-metaphor.jpg

I still like it, and it really falls into the contrast I'd make between using a system like C++11 vs Rebol. But IIRC Carl did not because it seemed too "childish" or like it was a toy (though he did say Rebol was "art"...)

This is taking away from my coding time. Now I know how Carl feels.

DideC
19-Dec-2012 4:57:18
Guys, you are off-topic. Please discuss this somewhere else, or
do [verbose: off]

I prefer Rebol. But I have used REBOL or Rebol without even wondering about it.

Fork
19-Dec-2012 9:09:45
(at DideC) We never really established a new forum for this kind of thing. I'm fighting against the low-but-nonzero StackOverflow rep requirement for chat, which is annoying but...if you only have 1 rep just ask a question about Rebol, we'll bump you in the door right away:

http://chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/291/rebol

That said: I'd argue this is the closest to a "branding" open discussion that has ever happened. There is logo and logotype, and casing is in the logotype, so even if you don't think the overarching topic is "branding" it does matter to discuss the logo w.r.t. this.

But glad you prefer Rebol. :-)

whois-spoiler
19-Dec-2012 11:10:32
(at) Zaz & BH: try the name of a writer of a famous christmas story.

Berol is a good new name too.

Pierre
20-Dec-2012 4:08:52
At Fork: I've just asked a little question on stackoverflow, with tags datagrid and rebol.
Pierre
21-Dec-2012 2:02:19
Fork: thanks for the upvote. I'm trying to find a question that I can decently answer...

I just understood what Q&A exactly means. Sorry, it must be my poor English's fault.

Ladislav
24-Dec-2012 1:56:08
At MaV: I assume that by writing

>>Rebol = REBOL == TRUE

you meant that you did not care about the language name capitalization. (You should have written it, since it is not very understandable from what you wrote, though.)

As these prove, it may matter even in the interpreter console, though:

'Rebol == 'REBOL ; == false 'Rebol =? 'REBOL ; == false

shadwolf
24-Dec-2012 5:42:01
irrelevant topic...

you want to do something usefull fix the sort function in r3 in order to not get

100.0.0.1 smaller than 1.0.0.1

In advance receive my deepest thanks!

shadwolf
24-Dec-2012 5:47:29
(at) all yet another example of the endless blabering skill you are so eager to display folks!
shadwolf
24-Dec-2012 5:50:25
(at) Carl: since when do rebol is case sensitive?

before starting a endless blabering warfare please considere that, you sir, on purpose made rebol case insensitive! So whatever matter the case you spell it.

shadwolf
24-Dec-2012 7:34
to be faire the sort function don't have problem dealing with sorting properly tuples! but with sorting properly tuples! into string!

"100.0.0.1" is smaller than "1.0.0.1" but 100.0.0.1 is bigger than 1.0.0.1 so or you load your data or you store them to a side block! after conversion.

I m not sure this is the most efficient way... sort already detects that there is numbers in strings and sort them properly we should add the tuple! dimension to that.

Brian Hawley
24-Dec-2012 8:37:10
Shad, there are other places where you could be having that discussion that would be more productive than an unrelated blog post. Why don't you make a CureCode ticket?

We are discussing naming here because that is the topic. Elsewhere, we are fixing things in R3. Go to CureCode if you want to suggest things to be fixed, or the GitHub project if you want to fix them yourself.

HRO
25-Dec-2012 16:49:48
Version:   2.100.111.3.1
Platform:  Windows win32-x86
Build:     20-Feb-2011/16:24:43

>> sort [ 100.0.0.1 1.0.0.1 ] == [1.0.0.1 100.0.0.1]

Am I missing something? It looks fine for me...
HRO
25-Dec-2012 16:56:01
Ah... sorry. tuples! vs. string!

Sorry to interrupt, but, why bending the string comparison when converting to tuple will do? (That way sorting tuples works as expected, and strings works as expected too.)

Am I missing something?

Ladislav
26-Dec-2012 6:27:55
At HRO - you wrote: "Am I missing something?" - no, you are certainly *not* missing anything. Those are just shadwolf's cobblers.
shadwolf
26-Dec-2012 7:25:21
Brian let me guess ... other place like hum altme? hehehe.

ladislav you hurt the remnants of my tiny heart...

HRO as I said you can convert it but it is extra work that people probably won't notice and then come with a complain (like me) so some generous and kind folk (not me since I m not generous and kind) should insert that dimension

>> a: ["1 test" "3 test" "100 test" "2 test"] == ["1 test" "3 test" "100 test" "2 test"] >> sort a == ["1 test" "100 test" "2 test" "3 test"]

A candy bar to the one getting the error first !

and that is just the tip of the iceberg it can be called a bug ... since it is just a missing part in a half made work ... so where do we report half made stuff that needs a polish touch to get out of their "urgh?" state?

As for the rest of the community that thinks I'm an endless ranter well I would say you quite not do the thing the proper way in order to make people like me who don want to loose their time in a lost cause join the effort. I would remind those happy fellows that 4 month ago they or did give a damn about rebol or they where all about red. Until Carl came back and whistle at them

Brian Hawley
26-Dec-2012 8:51:11
Shad, other places like the ones I mentioned.

We haven't been doing much development discussion in AltME, at least not in the public worlds that I'm a member of. AltME has been mostly discussions about building and porting lately, announcements and social stuff. Public AltME worlds aren't a good place to do development discussions - too much noise, too easy to get distracted by negative people. I suppose the same would go for any non-moderated public forum.

This is still off-topic. Nonetheless, I want strings to be sorted like strings. If I want them to be sorted like something else, I'd rather either convert them or use sort/compare. Your example code in your last message behaves the way that I would expect in any programming language, and most applications except Windows Explorer.

Use pre tags though, for your examples.

Ingo
27-Dec-2012 11:33:44
(at)Brian Me too!
Arnold
27-Dec-2012 13:05:31
And the result of this topic is as of 1- 1- 2013 we'll call REBOL:

Rebol or
rebol or
REBOL

?!

and we will use it EVERYWHERE

Fork
27-Dec-2012 18:31:28
The result of this topic should be:

REBOL is caps in the logotype, keep the black&white one and scrap the awful white R in a red square.

Language will remain case-insensitive for WORD! as always. The ability to do caps to call out APPEND/ONLY etc. in plaintext will continue, but if you have rich text of some kind say append/into if you so desire (unless you have a better idea for what to do with that callout).

How you write your Rebol/rebol/rEbOl header never mattered and isn't going to start mattering now. I'd say there's not any good reason to lowercase it in the script header, and uppercase might should be used more often in code than it is today--if it weren't for the shift key debacle. But that's all different. If we're talking about Rebol-the-language vs "make sure you put brackets after REBOL at the top of your script" is missing the subtlety of the use/mention distinction.

It's simply that when we write to people on the Internets in casual conversation, Rebol is polite and readable, and sort-of distracts from the completely irrelevant similarity to the name COBOL.

Arnold
30-Dec-2012 11:42:58
Completely agree with FORK this time ;)
shadwolf
3-Jan-2013 11:05:55
anyway I think this topic is outdated since rebol or Rebol or REBOL is now spelled Saphirion or SAPHIRION or saphirion :P

shadwolf
3-Jan-2013 11:09:58
BrianH I refuse plain and simple to use pre tag.

pre tags are offensives so I don t use them

Maxim Olivier-Adlhoch
3-Jan-2013 13:14:19
Rebol
Fork
5-Jan-2013 18:49:03
FWIW: by request, I have improved the antialiasing etc. in the favicon proposal:

http://www.rebol.net/wiki/REBOL_logo#Favicon

A reminder that writing it REB[o]L is available, as the occasional trick when writing tutorials...and I uppercase with a lowercase O is best for this treatment. Using this sparingly in tutorials could be fun and reinforce the meaning of the logo. I'm sure others can come up with better "jokes" than this, but here's an example of the spirit:

>> print mold second [REB[o]L]
[o]

A fun thing to throw in once in a while. (Red's "leading R in the color red" thing is rather distracting when it happens in every sentence on the blog...even moreso than all caps!)

Christophe
11-Jan-2013 1:27:43
I prefer the original name LAVA/MAGMA, i don't care about a probably confusion with JAVA for the name ... Post scriptum : Sorry for my english, I'm french ... Shame on me... A reader of the french webzine Obligement http://obligement.free.fr/
shadwolf
17-Jan-2013 8:51:44
Christophe like ten years ago Carl wanted to abandon rebol name because it was unknown from IT admins that were killing it mistaken it for a trojan...

My reply was the core of that problem is that rebol is massively unknown and whatever the name you change it to will be still remain the same: "a massivily unknown language".

Whaat in a decade have been done to make rebol more known and visible?

well rebol is now called r3 or saphirion. I m not certain this achieve the goal of making rebol.exe more known by IT admins in order for them to not kill it on sight mistakening it for a trojan or a proxy or a malware.

Yes I know those IT guys just should learn to google things before gunning them down ...

Bo
22-Jan-2013 6:23:15
I'm an IT guy, and I always research processes before I "gun them down". Maybe I'm above average? ;-)
Tim Johnson
6-Mar-2013 19:02:44
I have always used Rebol. 'REBOL' SOUNDS LIKE I'M SHOUTING. Sorry to shout BTW: I really like the idea of the Blog ID - sure beats captcha cheers
Frank
17-Apr-2013 14:16:30
... and the winner is : rebol, REBOL, Rebol, R.E.B.O.L. ?

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