Comments on: Investigating Ubuntu Linux 10 Problem
REBOL Technologies

Comments on: Investigating Ubuntu Linux 10 Problem

Carl Sassenrath, CTO
REBOL Technologies
20-Jul-2010 18:21 GMT

Article #0482
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There have been some reports that R2.7 has problems on Ubuntu Linux 10. We've confirmed that this is true and are investigating. It appears to be some problem related to specific elements of the graphics engine, but this is only a quick assessment.

We'll take a closer look and see if we can figure out the problem. If not, we'll try doing a native build for Ubuntu 10, and see how that does.

An OS Guru's Sidenote:

I was looking forward to trying Ubuntu 10...

What I found was "very pretty", meaning it has nice graphics, but someone in the Ubuntu project needs to be put in charge of the end-user experience, because quite frankly, it's poor. I was yet again disappointed. (BTW, I've been using Linux since 1993 and eagerly waiting for the day when it would become the OS for more than just us geeks.)

In fact, in some regards I'd say its gone backwards from previous releases. Yes, I know the "powers of Ubuntu-land" seek greater OS market share, and certainly with the havoc and chaos that Vista and Windows-7 have hoisted on the greater application marketplace (legacy apps have major problems) there is a huge opportunity here.

But the dream of Linux for all desktops still has some major hurdles if this is the best they can do. I was thinking about making a YouTube video of my experience and pointing out the problems along the way, but sorry, I just don't have the time with all the other things I'm working on.

Hopefully, someone on the Ubuntu project will emerge as a strong leader of end-user usability, and next time we'll see more than just another pretty Gnome.

PS: Please don't write telling me how wonderful it is. I've heard that a thousand times before. Sure, Linux has many, many nice features, but that's a different dimension than truly perfecting usability to the general public. No, instead, I want you to ponder the "Linux Dream" statement from about 1998 that within a few years (meaning by roughly 2002) Linux would dominate the desktop market, not just for techies, but for all computer users.

As of 2010, my parents don't use it, my wife doesn't use it (as much as I've urged her to do so), my kids don't use it (well, one toys with it from time to time), nor do any of my neighbors or other non-tech friends. Contemplate that for a minute, or more accurately, put that in your Slackware pipe and smoke it.

Honestly, sometimes I think there are Microsoft trolls lurking behind the scenes in the Linux development universe. Think about it.

51 Comments

Comments:

jaffa
20-Jul-2010 18:37:42
If you have not, I would suggest you have a look at Mint.
RobertS
20-Jul-2010 18:48:20
1993 was 4 years after "The Year of Unix" wasn't it? Or were we just expecting next year to be "the year" back in '88 ... or was '89 the year TCP/IP turned 15? Or am I thinking Xenix? They were all over-shadowed by OS/2 anyway ... and the System Object Model ... ssssOhhmmmm
danakil
21-Jul-2010 3:18:14
Carl, I have been a paying customer of REBOL Techs. in the past and I'd love to become one again...but we've been kept waiting for far too long now, and your comment about the desktops seems to confirm my suspicion that perhaps you're not even aiming for the right target: the desktop is *dead*. The web browser *is* the new desktop. People don't want to be tied to a physical machine for their continued work -- and they sure as hell don't want to use remote screen control tools to access our desktops and suffer from subpar display quality and sluggish performance! And the web apps of today are nothing like those from 5 years ago...web-based Google Maps now provides the same Satellite-view functionality as Google Earth...and for those web apps which require high-horsepower there's Google's NaCl. HTML5 and CSS3 provide the basis for the new GUI framework, the layout of which is not expected to be done by programmers (even with a nifty R3 VID dialect) but by web designers...with "print-style" rules of flowing layout. Yesterday I coded just one such a UI (in a language other than English) and, when done, opened it on Chrome...which immediately offered to translate it to English; I hit OK and voilą! R3 has taken way too long (remember Perl?) and, sure, it is now a much more mature language, likely suitable for programming-in-the-large...but is it 100x more productive? Is it 100x faster? Will it allow us to transparently utilize the many cores in today's CPUs for common tasks? It better be *much* better in a truly important regard, because it has lost the opportunity to fight with Python and Ruby for the Perl spot; and although its GUI dialect might end up being super easy to use, it arguably lacks both polish (past experience with AmigaOS and R2 suggests that this is not an aspect to which you seem to devote lots of attention) and exhaustive component libraries (which take years to build); and perhaps worse, it still seems to be firmly planted in the desktop windowing world at a moment when everything is moving to the browser--will R3 allow us to build web apps that take full advantage of HTML5/CSS3 and work across desktop web browsers and mobiles, for example? R3 might have lost the opportunity to build market share during a technological "tectonic shift" in the market (always a good time)...my friends don't use it, my coworkers don't use it, our customers don't use it, people in academia are not using it, Google is not using it...Think about it.
polisher
21-Jul-2010 3:38:54
danakil,
you have to add this to make your post complete:

my grandma don't use it
my grandpa don't use it
my backery don't use it
my slaughter don't use it
the aliens from outerspace don't use it

then replace 'Think' with 'Laugh' and you are fine.

harrrharr...

danakil
21-Jul-2010 3:49:07
(at)polisher: I assume you realize that your comment applies just as well to Carl's original use of the "my parents don't use it, my wife don't use it, ..." argument.
polisher
21-Jul-2010 4:22:43
of course!
Edoc
21-Jul-2010 9:39:44
My impression is that REBOL is targeting a set of computing challenges from the 1985 to 1995 era of computing. The industry papered-over thes problems instead of solving them. As a result, bloat and complexity (e.g., OOP, IDE's, XML, browser markups) continue to this day.

From my viewpoint, REBOL has not followed the marketplace. It has not chased marketing fads, platform wars, or hardware trends. It remains focused on solving the legacy of bloat and complexity which turns modern programming into a wretched time-vampire.

I think when R3 emerges from this next phase, it will be a solid language for a 1985-1995 world. Do not expect an R3 that is mature for headline-worthy tech (HTML5, video, handhelds, concurrency, etc.) It will be up to the community and lone hackers to build-out those layers. RT needs to focus on delivering the functionality, power and community-building that enables this. Time to grow up, REBOL-- decentralized growth and maturity. First breakout, then breakthrough-- in that order.

RobertS
21-Jul-2010 13:45:15
Take the example of inlining, JS and haxx. The V8 JavaScript engine went back to look at strategies in strongtalk. Not because strongtalk is a buzzword now or was one then. Compiling JS to native code is not the browser model and it is not clear that the browser is the new desktop outside of the marketing departments as a great deal of mission critical software is not in the browser. I just got a call on a mission-critical app that needs a rescue: it's in Ruby on Rails. Ruby is not the new Perl because Perl was not the new ICON. Ruby is just Smalltalk reduced to files and more RegExp and more SQL. Work on Io, the language has not stopped and work on a pythonic Icon proceeds at convergepl.org - regardless of the browser and pad-computing. And who still polishes floors or shoes? Polish off a good California vintage instead ... and look at an iPhone: it is not a browser and Objective_C is not really strongtalk. Then look at Android. How many lines of code was that app? And relax. That's what the good vintage is for ... and oh yes, Ruby is self-documenting (only Python is more self-documenting [indent] and more self-documenting [indent]

PS Was strongtalk a browser or an app?

Oldes
21-Jul-2010 15:10:33
danakil, if you want to do something creative and not just fill forms, you will need desktop for a very long time... speaking about computer jobs.

At least I cannot imagine my work done using multiple computers and just browsers.

Edoc
21-Jul-2010 18:35:02
RobertS -- Sorry, I couldn't follow your last message. Why take the example of inlining JS and haxx? You listed a lot of nouns but lost me: Strongtalk, Ruby, Io, Perl, Android, SQL, Python, Objective C and lots of wine (perhaps too much).
Carl Sassenrath
21-Jul-2010 18:47:01
Good stuff, keep it rolling.

(I just hope it doesn't pop-up on the Linux radar, because I don't want to be blasted and forced to actually make that video. Remember Ubuntu guys, I DID day it has many * e10 features.... just ignore the fact that Synaptic package manager blew out five times when trying to import the X11 devs pkg to do an R2 build, etc, etc.)

Ironically today I came up with a separate perspective on the MS grip of modern computing... and how we've all been misled. A subject for another blog, if I get the nerve to write it.

shadwolf
21-Jul-2010 21:46:21
ubuntu remix on my nettop computer took 5 minutes to install didn't explode the previous windows 7 starter ed partition upon resizing and repartioning.

Grub PC detects the windows7 partition without having me to tell it to do so.

With synaptic all the apps i want to add are installed in 10 seconds.

Configuring my wifi takes me only the time to write the password.

Booting ubuntu 10.4 takes 35 secondes instead of 3 minutes with windows 7.

Estetically it's functionnal without being extravagant.

When you click an icon you don't have to wait a whole minutes to get the app started. flash and web browser are speeder than on android for my nettop (acer one D250)...

Since i installed ubuntu on my nettop i don't use windows7 anymore ...

People use what their computer comes with you think the 2 millions people that bought an ipad in last month cares about what's inside ? there is not 250 Go harddrive no choice of OS no flash support and no alternative to safari web browser.

shadwolf
21-Jul-2010 22:59:32
Edoc i have the same feeling... REbol is stuck in 1998 and don't want to get ride of it :).

In case no one noticed we are in 2010.

We don't have flying overboard or cars, we don't have auto adjustable cloth and shoes that talk to us. But we all have several cores processor nearing the 10 GHz of computing force and GPU that are over 650Mhz.

Graham
22-Jul-2010 1:23:01
Carl, you should have mentioned that your issue with Ubuntu is based on a live Cd. The live Cd may be missing lots of stuff, and you may not have enough of a ram drive to allow you to download and install the missing libraries.
-pekr-
22-Jul-2010 2:09:27
Shadwolf - you imo misunderstood Edoc. I take his message as positive. REBOL might be 1985 - 1995 in its mindset, but its fight against the complexity still applies!

We need to finish R3 first, to at least beta state. We are getting there, albeit slowly. Everybody out there talks HTML5, but only handful of ppl actually know what does it mean. For those who want to live the hype, I have one suggestion - leave the REBOL, and be happy :-)

Nick
22-Jul-2010 3:57:29
re: 1985-1995

In my world, computers are valuable because they help manage and process useful DATA. Most of what's changed and "improved" in modern computing has to with the proliferation of _entertainment_ media. REBOL isn't the right tool for building media (entertainment) applications, modern games, etc., but it's still the best way I know to create USEFUL data management applications. When it comes to creating productive applications that affect how the world around me operates, so little in computing has actually changed in the past several decades. User interfaces are shinier and there are many more popular devices and layers/choices of technology, but very little of that "new" technology actually provides added value for my computing needs. REBOL's productivity benefits still outperform any new development technology, and that's why I still use it. For years, I've been grateful for REBOL's value in my businesses and personal life, it's never failed me, and it's productive value continues to grow as my business and personal needs mature and expand. If I could find anything better for my needs, I would use it, but in 10 years I've never found anything that beats REBOL's strengths.

I'd love to see RT's marketing message clearly define that REBOL's strength is (still) PRODUCTIVITY. Separate itself from the media and entertainment computing trends, and focus on the fact that the computer users who need to develop useful custom data management applications will not find a more efficient way to get projects DONE. Among all the layers of modern software technology, maturing generations of massive development tools, hardware and operating system improvements, etc. there still is no more productive way to build custom data management applications than with REBOL.

Anon
22-Jul-2010 8:28:03
Carl: Too late! You've hit the aggregators. You don't get to hit the big time until LinuxHater cites you ;)

(Although secretly I would like to know about one of the issues that you ran into even if it won't ever be fixed :)

AlsoAnon
22-Jul-2010 9:39:46
Random musings aren't useful-- some actual examples and constructive criticism are much more helpful.
Edoc
22-Jul-2010 13:56:02
Nick -- I agree. I think REBOL's strength is personal productivity-- as long as you don't have to integrate with anything, that is. I think REBOL could be the world's best personal programming language, but it needs to remove the barriers to doing the kinds of things hackers and makers want (i.e., extend WinAmp, ffMPEG, WebKit, Asterisk, Arduino, 3D engines and so on). R2 is very insular in that regard, but R3 seems to be headed in the right direction.

Many of us have have to continue to live with bloated desktop apps from the 1985-2010 dystopia. However, I think it would still be attractive to have a powerful flyweight interpreter like REBOL to bring them all to heel (as opposed to reimplementing them).

Maxim Olivier-Adlhoch
22-Jul-2010 22:42:17
R3 is getting its own SWIG style C library importer.

I'm currently implementing a new tool call assimilator.r

Its in a redesign stage right now, but its last working version (dated yesterday) was already capable of generating and compiling a complete R3 extension by parsing a C header file, without any other required data or coding.

the new engine is WAAAAAYYYY more powerfull, but its not complete, I expect this to be done tomorrow, as I am currently working on the last phase of the assimilation, which is actual Extension Code generation.

shadwolf
23-Jul-2010 2:45:48
Why people would choose rebol to extend their application by script since they have Lua?

Rebol in eternal alpha stage and stuck there fore a long moment more to come.

While Lua is there and interfacing lua to anything is easy lua was designed in that purpose wich is clearly not the case of rebol...

and integrating non GLPed thing to most of the GPL things will not be choosen. For example do we aim serriously to conquiere blender and have rebol doing script extension instead of python ? Or does again the rebol way will be known by 10 people and use by 2 ?

And once again what will be the lack of rebol will be the documentation available that presents the goods of rebol.

Nick
23-Jul-2010 9:51:43
Shadwolf, you've stated in other communication channels that you're not currently using REBOL and not following current development, so it's clear that your perspective must be different from those who actively use REBOL. Whatever the size of the current community, there are those of us who do rely on REBOL for production work, and we welcome the new R3 developments because they add greater potential to REBOL's capabilities. Personally, I'd prefer to use REBOL over LUA to integrate with other tools. If you prefer another stack of tools, then use them - perhaps REBOL doesn't fit your particular needs, but your situation is not the same as mine. For those who prefer the benefits of using REBOL, the current R3 developments are exciting because they pave the way to eliminating many of REBOL's previous limitations. Isn't it clear to see why those advancements are valuable to this community?
Edoc
23-Jul-2010 9:53:09
shadwolf, fair point, but your argument can be applied to all programming domains and languages, since other FOSS languages are well established across the broad spectrum. Why contribute yet another programming language in the first place?

Flipping the question around, if other languages have already adapted to a various niches, then, assuming REBOL lacks the capability, REBOL is at a disadvantage. In order for programmers to embrace REBOL, shouldn't REBOL be sufficiently capable as Python, Ruby, Scala, and Lua?

And considering the syntax & complexity of those languages, I think REBOL would be quite attractive in comparison. Think of how you would extract a TITLE tag from an HTML page in REBOL, and then compare to: LUA: Getting The Title From Html Files

Once REBOL becomes sufficiently capable, powerful and fast, at that point finer issues of simplicity, expressiveness and reflection may weigh in its favor. You are right about FOSS, but we'll have to see how that plays out. Carl's approach to licensing stands in stark contrast to the trends of 1985 - present. This is one of the main reasons I see REBOL as a personal/productive programming language, rather than a hacker or enterprise language.

As for documentation, I agree 100%. Carl has likened REBOL to the English language, and I see the parallels. But human languages are products of evolution and spread through conquest. We need a breakthrough in teaching proficiency & fluency in REBOL. However, like interpreting the US Constitution, it's a challenge to write essential docs unless you have a lot of insight about the framer's original intent. You won't get these insights from the documentation currently available.

Sebastien Jeudy
24-Jul-2010 3:33:36
Hi,

For the future, I suggest to redevelop the REBOL engines on the WebOS...

Kind Regards,

Sebastien 'Jedi' Jeudy.

www.neosysta.com

kd123
24-Jul-2010 7:02:03
linux on the desktops - i.e to the masses, will never happen. Linux is too fragmented, and there are too many versions, everybody is reinventing the wheel instead of collaborating and adding to each other's effort. and this plays in favour of Microsoft.

Rebol too is a thing of the past. It had a window of opportunity which it didn't seize. It is a very marginal player because of the wrong decisions made in the past. we could only ask "what if ... ? " Rebolution has turned into a reboImplosion

the new rising language and platform is the iphone/ipad platform, and cocoa/objective c are the current development supported framework and language. Even Dobeash (regbui, rebdb ) is moving to iphone/ipad and its development paradigm.

RT ignored for too long the writings on the wall and didn't react fast enough.

Edoc
24-Jul-2010 7:50:31
kd123-- If being popular and having commercial acceptance are your definition of success then you might be missing the point. REBOL was conceived in the spirit of going against the norm and tackling fundamental problems long ignored by the industry.

The "revolution" part of REBOL certainly does sound like so much b.s. because these days everybody claims outsider/underdog status. I am the last person to drink Kool-Aid, but I think Carl is 100% sincere. The decisions that have been made make a pretty strong case that Carl's overarching philosophy is to avoid the herd. I like R2 very much and I think R3 is going to be a lot better-- while still being stubbornly counter-culture.

If/when R3 doesn't take the world by storm, there won't be any mystery as to why. Popularity is not really the main goal. Regardless of the outcome I think REBOL will always be a useful tool for a certain set of problems, and it's an interesting (and somewhat radical) experiment in the story of computer languages. I think the benefits are easily worth the investment in time to watch it (slowly!) unfold.

Maarten
25-Jul-2010 14:53:44
Linux everywhere - that dream is coming true and is called Android.

Please, focus on the so-called "post-PC" devices. The desktop will be a producer environment. Then we have ChromeOS coming there...

Steven White
26-Jul-2010 8:02:35
...a separate perspective on the MS grip of modern computing...

I for one would like to read that.

Some years ago, Edsger Dijkstra made some comment, related to IBM and "unmastered complexity," about "selling one's soul to the devil." I don't remember the exact words, although I think I have them in a stack of paper somewhere.

danakil
26-Jul-2010 11:36:56
(at)oldes Nowadays, you can do far more than "fill forms" with web apps.

If you haven't done it yet, by all means do take a look at the IE9 preview page (http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/) it's a really nice example of what HTML5/CSS3 are bringing to the game.

Be sure to take a look at the Amazon Shelf, DOM Traversal Gallery, Canvas Zoom, Web Fonts, and Canvas Pad demos. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love REBOL (I'm a sucker for truly elegant and inherently powerful programming languages--REBOL, J, K, Backus FL, Io, Icon, Pure, Algol68 and Smalltalk/Self), but REBOL now just can't *effectively* do what you see there. There was an R3 graphics demo, years ago (!), that did provide a good show *on the client*...but this goes far beyond, and it's on the browser.

By the way, I am far from being a M$ fan. I choose IE9 as an example because it's a nicely packaged demo. As for a browser, I use Chromium (http://build.chromium.org/buildbot/snapshots/) which is even more advanced than Chrome, and doesn't keep Google informed of everything I do. By the way, regarding Carl's choice of browser, I happen to also like Opera quite a bit--Opera Unite is fantastic--but Chromium has better HTML5/CSS3 support and it simply works better overall for me. Firefox 3 was a losing proposition. Firefox 4 looks very promising...and might even make me switch back when they integrate the wonderful TabCandy (http://azarask.in/projects/tabcandy/) into it.

-pekr-
26-Jul-2010 12:38:38
"and it's on the browser" speaks for itself, so - no matter how the stuff sucks, the only mantra is - it's on the browser, right? We can hear it for more than 10 years already. Those things are at least getting better last days, but not quite there yet. Just read your last paragraph - it's full of "one day"s and "may be"s, listing mostly beta supported browser stuff.

Well, now I can bet that if I would propose R3 browser plugin, it would be dismissed by html5 (whatever most ppl mean by it) fanatics, as being hostile to "standards", putting R3 browser plugin into the same category, as Flash or Silverlight. And why? Because Apple or Google suggests that :-)

danakil
26-Jul-2010 13:56:31
(at)pekr
First, re your "no matter how the stuff sucks"...You must have misunderstood me: I can't stand low-quality or less-than-fully-polished stuff (that's one of my biggest gripes against R3's current GUI styling, in fact). The fact is that *current* web-based technologies already allow for extremely HQ apps in all browsers except IE6 and, partly, IE8 (now, if somebody were to argue that IE6 is the most important one, he/she is likely one of those "fanatics" you allude to). Even M$ realizes how bad their situation is in this regard and thus their very strong push forward with IE9.
Second, re your comment about my post being full of 'one day...' and 'maybe...' and 'beta supported stuff': I read my post again but could not find anything there that matches your claims.
Perhaps you meant my Firefox 4 and TabCandy comment? That was tangential to my main point, and I was in fact referring back to Carl's old post about browser choice.
Perhaps you mean that HTML5/CSS3 support is somehow "beta" because it is not yet fully accepted as an international standard? Well, then you should now that that it is not scheduled to happen until 2017...and I would be very surprised if you would argue to wait *until then* to take advantage of their de facto standard status.
Perhaps you mean that it is "beta supported" because different browsers support HTML5/CSS3 to different degrees? You'd surely have to be joking, Mr. Feynman. ;-) According to that reasoning, SQL is 'only beta supported' in *all* RDBMS...and we should all wait to have full support across the board before making use of it!
Third, re an "R3 browser plugin"...you're very probably right! The time is gone and way past when providing a downloadable browser plugin was a feasible strategy from a marketing point of view...*unless* the plugin could be downloaded practically transparently thanks to its small size--but even then web etiquette rules would demand that the browser user be asked to confirm, and that's where non-no lies.
Flash is out...and rightly so, IMO. Silverlight is under perennial life-support. The fact is, like or not, the JavaScript+HTML+CSS triad rules the browser and, when all is said and done, it very arguably provides a reasonable, usable (perhaps even effective) *platform* for supporting higher-level (or simply better designed) dynamic languages...sort of a "web virtual machine"...and it only keeps getting better (have you seen the latest V8 benchmarks?). I'm no Python fan either, but this point is nicely illustrated by Sculpt (python running over js, http://www.skulpt.org/) and Objective-J (which is to JS what Objective-C is to C, http://cappuccino.org/). We all have perfect hindsight, but perhaps R3 would've benefited greatly if it had been designed to run on top of JavaScript.
Greg Schofield
26-Jul-2010 17:38:43
Please please think; named & addressable local webservers; think of Cheyenne and R3 running within its environment and then think of having not one but many local web servers running idle ready to be addressed -- and each being its own dedicated production environment that processes data and moving it along.

Of course, the same thing can be done in other ways, more efficient ways, but as a way of doing things in a grand modular way, in a way that non-programmers could cobble together working data production lines, tweak things and evolve them the idea of linking environments together is pregnant with possibilities.

Everything on the browser, getting rid of the desktop, are slogans, but slogans stand for other things less happily put into a few words.

The thing that comes to the fore is the possible role of webservers and I think the logic is good especially when Cheyenne proves so lightweight.

Fernando K
1-Aug-2010 1:18:24
Linux might leave many potential users wondering when it comes to installing applications. What if your distro doesn't have the application you want? For many, this becomes a bridge too far.

Barry Kauler (Puppy Linux) may have made some progress here with "Woof". In "Woof", packages from any distro can be processed, currently supporting Debian, Ubuntu, Slackware, Arch, T2 and Puppy and perhaps soon an RPM-based distro.

http://bkhome.org/woof

Rebol running in Lucid Puppy, based on Ubuntu, may also have some graphical issues, not too sure, having just tried it.

shadwolf
11-Aug-2010 20:37:13
by the way i vote for the ubuntu video comment by carl sassenrath.

:)

shadwolf
11-Aug-2010 20:58:56
maxim cool news i think assimilator is going to be the next big thing in our world. I remember we talked about an analyst script like that 5 years ago in dll.so group on alt me.

hum more README.TXT is the basic thing that comes just after a tar -zxvf ****.tgz and yes cascading installations are sometimes anavoidables the thing is linux should tend to lower this need and i think the apt debian way get a pretty success in that domain. it's the price to pay to be present on as many different hardware linux is. then ubuntu is 3 main distribs for just the look i would choose kunbutu ( i love the virtual desktops mapped to a 3D cube and spining when you change virtual desktops) i like ub_untu with gtk cause i find it a b it more reactive on my computer. but 10 years ago i was pretty founded in just a debian with a 9Wm destop a xterm and nothing else ;)

and at same time i liked what people was doing with the enlightenment window manager and it's total skining gui i remember some crazy stuffs like windows transformed into rain like annimation upon closing.

shadwolf
11-Aug-2010 21:39:06
nick hum... That's non sense from head to Toe. You do production with rebol everyday ? prouve it. where what how and how much greenies you made past year with rebol and what version of rebol and even more particularly what part of rebol did you use ?

try to think of it you probably use 5% of rebol strenght i fight for the massive use of the 95% remaining ...

I'm tired of people coming with big talks about rebol saying they are God users big creator of rebol softwares but we don't know who they are and what they done, and how much busyness they mean.

nick the difference betwin you and me is that my creations with rebol are all over the internet i don't hide what I do or what I have done.

Am I frustrated yes. like countless of people but instead of drinking it and doing other things somewhere else in silence. I try to get constructive by trying to have a talk noone wants to have about rebol's futur.

like it or not that's my way.

And I don't think i'm disrespectfull when doing it. As my information don't worry pal i'm informed and i was at the base of many of the things comming now in R3. but I like to pretend i'm not to get the informations spreading much easyly outside the caves an,d be more accessible to the common of the mortals that are interested in rebol but have not as much time to spend in information gathering.

My work with rebol always tended to extend what we could do with rebol and how we could do better. See i'm not building rebol so that allows me to drop some crazy ideas. Some will be converted into reallity many years later so much that people would forget they came to those things by discussing with me.

Nick
12-Aug-2010 8:42:37
Shadwolf,

This business runs entirely on REBOL: http://rockfactory.us . Daily scheduling, accounting, web site maintenance, event scheduling, student signin notification and other workflow apps, as well as programs that play and print music, which we use to teach and practice in many hundreds of lessons a week, are all written in REBOL. I've employed 25+ instructors at that business for the past 6 years.

Nick
12-Aug-2010 8:43:34
This business runs entirely on REBOL: http://www.myzeusscloset.com . I created the program that handles their point of sale, inventory management, accounting, check writing activities, and more, entirely in REBOL (their web site was done by someone else).
nick
12-Aug-2010 8:45:14
I wrote the software system for this business, from the ground up in REBOL: http://merchantsvillage.com . That package contains a bar code system to handle millions of pieces of inventory from hundreds of vendors, a security program to monitor and record more than 100 simultaneous video cameras, and every other activity that occurs in every facet of that business, all written entirely in REBOL. I co-own that building (120,000 sq ft on 29 acres), entirely because of what I was able to accomplish with REBOL.
Nick
12-Aug-2010 8:47:45
Here are some screen shots of that software: http://re-bol.com/merchants_village_screen_shots.zip
Nick
12-Aug-2010 8:51:29
The member pages and classified ads for this site run entirely on REBOL CGI programs: http://pappg.com (look at member #1).

I also own a number of personal sites that are #1, 2, or 3 in Google for their respective search terms, all of which owe something to REBOL. Look up "paramotor tutorial" (#1, written in makedoc), "live online music lessons" (#1, many features of that web site are REBOL), "computer programming tutorial" (#3, written about REBOL), etc.

I've written many hundreds of small scripts and utilities that I use daily in my work and personal life. There are several hundred pages of examples at re-bol.com/examples.txt

The work that I've been able to accomplish with the help of programs that I've written in REBOL has contributed over a million dollars to my net worth. Is that enough to satisfy your curiosity?

shadwolf
13-Aug-2010 6:40:22
As Though you and many other hide they do things with rebol...

Why arent' you more proud of using rebol and scream it everywhere you have a chance to.

You say it's rebol below those website ... nothing prouves it could be anything...

See in one hand you comme here to say rebol is fantastic etc and in the other hand outside this site you constantly hide the technologies you use. This is a strong tendency in rebol community for many years now and how we will show rebol is an affortable solution when the few rebolers hide their consecptions are made with rebol.

and i'm sorry but rebol is much more than a replacement for PHP ... like it or not.

shadwolf
13-Aug-2010 6:45:45
i developed many years a compiler for rebol softwares named GREBOX, it was merging th VM and the project data to a single .exe file. It works pretty it was an alternative to rebol SDK. I stopped diffusing it because 1) i didn't want to kill the main income around rebol for RT 2) I noticed that hiding rebol in an exe wasn't the coolest solution to get rebol diffused widely. I find better to share a script with all my code and all my dev comments accessible to anyone than closing the knowledge and keep it for me only.
kd123
15-Aug-2010 19:48:09
(at)shadwolf,

a compiler doesn't merge the vm and project data to a single .exe file. I suspect you are creating some kind of self extracting exe file, like the zip uitilities do.

a compiler compiles source code and creates native machine code object, and the end object should include the source code at all.

kd123
15-Aug-2010 19:50:49
sorry typo in my previous comment

(at)shadwolf, a compiler doesn't merge the vm and project data to a single .exe file. I suspect you are creating some kind of self extracting exe file, like the zip uitilities do

a compiler compiles source code and creates native machine code object, and the end object should NOT include the source code at all.

KD123
15-Aug-2010 19:53:34
(at) nick,

www.rockfactory.com seems to be using Perl.

Nick
18-Aug-2010 14:11:47
There's one old script that still handles form mail there.
Nick
18-Aug-2010 16:00:40
Here's a quick rundown of REBOL code that Rockfactory relies on:

* My REBOL sitebuilder.cgi is used to edit content and build all the main publicly viewable pages of the Rockfactory site.

* My REBOL web-tool.cgi is used to upload, download, search, backup, perform file/folder manipulation, and to perform all other general site maintenance operations.

* The recital_signup.cgi is used, along with a GUI desktop REBOL app, to organize all public events at which students perform.

* Here's a screen shot of the REBOL signin.r program that students use to sign in to every lesson, every time they come to the shop: http://re-bol.com/signin_screenshot2.jpg . That ties into a notification system in each lesson studio that audibly announces to each individual instructor when their next student has arrived (only for their own students). That in turn keeps a searchable history (which is backed up on the web site) of every student signin that has ever occured.

* Every day, teachers check out (settle payment) using a REBOL desktop application which allows them to automatically select students they've seen that day, from their online schedule. A full backup of all this data is saved online, and a REBOL cgi application can be accessed by any teacher at any time to generate reports for records of lesson history for any time period, for any student or group of students. The entire detailed history of every single lesson we've ever given, and every single payment we've ever received is all immediately available and searchable online.

* A version of the clock-sync.r script (built into the checkout program) automatically keeps all the computer clocks in the building synced to the same time.

* ALL Rockfactory checks are all printed using a custom REBOL check writing program. It stores the names of all our vendors, default recurring payment amounts, etc. and prints everything, including the verbalized payment amount, signature, etc., on our custom bank checks.

* We use guitar-chords.r to teach a standardized method of jazz chord study to guitarists. Chord charts for every song that students perform in their local school jazz band concerts get printed out using that program.

* We use the chord-accompaniment-player.r program every day to generate chord progressions (audible song backgrounds) to practice with.

* Vocal intructors use a version of the jukebox.r program to remove vocals from recordings, to create Karaoke versions of the songs, for students practice with.

* Teachers, staff, and students use the intercom.r to speak with each other (voice over IP) without having to get up and and walk between studio rooms, waiting rooms, management offices, etc. An internal REBOL file server is also used to transfer files between rooms.

* The reschedule.cgi page on the web site is used to manage up-to-the-minute rescheduling of students on a daily basis. This is the most critical part of our daily workflow, and is one of the biggest advantages we offer to teachers over other studios - our teachers get immediate notifications directly in their daily schedules (viewable online in any browser), and by email, with requested reschedule times, picked by students, from their available open appointment times (that info is also immediately available online to clients, on the reschedule page). Our secretary also gets a notification of each request, and each rescheduled appointment initiated online (5-20 per day) saves an average of 4 phone calls (per EACH request), or LOTS of time, money, and frustration for us.

* The rescheduler ties into a significant backend scheduling system that teachers and secretarial staff use to organize hundreds of weekly appointments with 25+ teachers.

* The entire system can be managed using REBOL CGI applications that run on a standard tiny WAP cell phone browser - I use my little clamshell phone to organize my online schedule and personal data every single day - no smart phone required.

Nick
18-Aug-2010 16:01:30
* There are also several REBOL console scripts for Windows Mobile that I used for years to manage the entire system.

* Everything about the online videoconference lessons except the actual video/audio tranfer (login, IP tracking, scheduling, file transfer, etc.) is also all managed by REBOL cgi scripts.

* I regularly use my remove-emails-cgi.r script to delete Rockfactory spam email.

* I use my chmod777to555.rto help manage security on the web site.

* My forum.cgi script is used internally to carry on interactions between staff and students regarding rehearsal and performance activities, equipment use, etc.

* My simple_search.r script is used every day to search for curriculum files and other text documents that get handed out to students.

* So many other little scripts have been useful. I used the my web-cam.r script to take photos of all the teachers. We've made fun use of the voice-alarms.r script. It'd be impossible for me to think of all the one/several liners I've created on the the spot for some special use.

Everything I've listed here is code that I've written from the ground up in REBOL, usually in my spare time.

As it turns out, the only part of the Rockfactory computing setup that ever gives me trouble is that stupid PERL mail script on Rockfactory.us. I've been meaning to switch it out for a more reliable REBOL script that I've used elsewhere, which puts notifications directly into our scheduling system. Maybe that makes it more clear that Rockfactory's computing needs are decidedly NOT DRIVEN BY PERL. Thanks for the reminder to switch out that little form mail script :)

Nick
18-Aug-2010 21:12
I'm sure there are so many others. Today, I noticed http://rockfactory.us/jam/photo_viewer.cgi .
Kaj
9-Sep-2010 6:13:29
Wow Nick, I didn't realise the extent of your operation! I've been moving the infrastructure of our Syllable project in that direction for years, but for now you beat us hands down. :-)

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