Comments on: The Current Plan
REBOL Technologies

Comments on: The Current Plan

Carl Sassenrath, CTO
REBOL Technologies
25-Oct-2007 21:53 GMT

Article #0343
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If you're watching REBOL from outside the "private halls" of various AltME worlds, you would likely be a bit disenchanted with what appears to be very little happening.

In fact, it's quite the opposite, but how would you know?

This communication problem has plagued us every time we get deeply involved in developing the next big thing. Internally, we are crazy with activity; externally, it looks like we've all gone to Tahiti to sit on the beach (although, I must admit, that sounds really good right now.) Yes, our focus is on loading the cannons, not on making speeches from the balcony. Sorry about that.

So, what is happening? Here's a recap of recent activities...

 REBOL 3.0R3 continues to be our main focus. The priority of getting this release out is still the same. We wanted it yesterday. However, the way we accomplish that has changed. (I'll clarify what I mean below.) But, R3 is running well enough that someone contacted me recently wanting an "ok" to ship a product that uses R3. That's a good sign. So, when does it get released? See DevBase below.
 R3 Alpha UsersThere are quite a few people involved now in the alpha testing for R3. Everyone has their favorite areas to contribute. That is good to see, and I'm thankful for the help. Where things have slowed down is in the area of leadership. RT has been "sharing" some of the primary team leaders with another huge software development effort going on at a "sister" company. It's a problem, but maybe this will help...
 DevBaseDevelopment of R3 has really pushed the issue of how to manage collaboration and contributions. Or, stated another way, we don't want to stand on the train tracks to direct the locomotive. We'll either get flattened, or the train must hit the brakes and lose momentum. You've heard me talk before about DevBase (also called Coop). The time has finally arrived, and I firmly believe that without DevBase, it's not likely that we could ever complete R3. I will be saying a lot more about DevBase very soon. Once it's running, we'll open R3 alpha for all developers.
 WebsitesThere's been a lot of discussion about how to reshape the public image of REBOL - from not only the developer view, but also from the end user and business user views. Some of you talked about it in my blog comment section. I'm really interested in making this happen. After the release of DevBase, and along with the completion of R3, we'll be looking for good ways to make such changes. It will start with building a small team and agreeing on a plan of action.

So, that's where we are right now.

The next major milestone is the release of DevBase. I must say it has been an interesting project. It's got me thinking again about how to make substantial improvements to the REBOL application environment... and all the nice things to come in R3...

146 Comments

Comments:

EyeAm
25-Oct-2007 17:22:45
Uh oh, somebody better get the Dopamine ready--Luis might need it after seeing Carl comment on R3...eleven times in one post. :-D

(at)Carl: I know what it appears like on the outside, but I also know what's going on behind the scenes--(hmm, you don't feel like you're being watched by some vaporous, metaphysical eye, by chance, do you? Haha).

"but how would you know?" A: Clairvoyance. ESP. Psychic powers, of course! ;-)

No Tahiti for you, nope. Hmm...and good thing you're not making speeches from the balcony--you probably couldn't fit into Eva Peron's dress. (ducks).

A recap is just a restatement of what has come before (look for a 'recap' of Luis' complaints to match your recap).

REBOL 3.0 -- Main focus? Good. Looking forward to downloading it and trying it out. (crossing fingers it runs under Vista Ultimate 64-Bit, even using Compatability mode).

R3 Alpha Users -- N/A to me. But, AH!, what's this 'sister' company? ;-) Would that be a SPANISH 'sister' company? :D Should 'Lorraine' be jealous or envious? Hmm, let's hope so, and let's hope R3 winds up with his major headquarters/base in that new project, even if it does also run on other platforms.

DevBase -- I have at least *one* suggestion on contributions and collaborations (at least from outside the loop, end-users and such). How about an online 'suggestion box' (with plenty of check boxes and options to properly route the suggestion and collate it with others of a similar type, for the easier digestion by those on the inside of the loop? This, of course, wouldn't help in the case of 'contribution' that is actual code, but it would insofar as new ideas about what Rebol could go for and do, or make happen. Sort of a survey/questionnaire approach, but with a Comment box for further description of the idea. And any legal notices ahead of Submit, saying that what is submitted is contributed freely and becomes part of Rebol, etc. All that jazz.

Websites -- I've been tinkering with some graphical concept ideas for a new Rebol website, with an emphasis on three different areas to click on (Business/Professional/Corporate, Personal/End-User, and Enthusiast/Programmer/Coder). I have four different styles created right now--each quite different from one another. One is very soft and elegant, another is bold and glossy and reflective, another is sort of...hmm...theatrical, I guess, and one is rather gold :-) I didn't have a good Rebol logo to go with, and even the reinvention isn't as perfect as it should be. But, should anyone put out a call for some graphical ideas, I'll be looking for an email address to send in a .pdf snapshot of these. (maybe it would be a cool idea to ask for submissions like this, like people submit desktop wallpaper--just a graphical snapshot of what the new Rebol website could look like, and then post them for people to vote on). I wouldn't be upset at all if mine came out on the bottom end of the voting/deciding; it's just fun.

Okay, lastly: Luis is probably going to say no release date was given in your post. ;-) (I still see him there lurking...watching... That breathing you hear--it's Luis. Though he fainted because you mentioned R3 eleven times).

-pekr-
26-Oct-2007 0:41:37
EyeAm,

1) Sister company. No, it is not Amiga. One day, we might buy remnants of Amiga Inc., but remember - those who touch Amiga die :-) Now even Tao Group went under :-) If you would be careful, you would notice last DevCon presentation, and mention of SafeWorlds. It is Reichart's company, and the company is working now on http://www.qtask.com , employing some rebollers. So that is the reason why we slowed down a bit - some devs work for Qtask too. But - the work was done in some other areas in the meantime.

2) Checklist - why don't you guys just join "the darknet"? :-) Here's module available with Altme - checklists - http://www.altme.com/guide/lists.html

3) I am very interested in your web site styles! I think that we should form special AtlME channel for those intersted. There we can share files, use checklists ;-), chat in various groups, having private chats, isolated groups, etc.

Luis
26-Oct-2007 2:01:30
/thud/
EyeAm
26-Oct-2007 3:38:27
(at)-pekr- No, that's more like 'those who get in the WAY of Amiga...die'. I want to see Carl Sassenrath as President of Amiga Inc.; and him rewriting the Amiga OS kernel as an exokernel. And making Amiga OS the home headquarters of Rebol. And Rebol IOS folded into that new 64-Bit Amiga OS. :-) (and no more MorphOS, because that getting folded into Amiga OS, as well, for the PPC side; and AROS, for the x86-64 side). And Commodore and Amiga forging a deal for "Commodore-Amiga" flagship computer; but also clones (i.e., regular PC motherboards for Amiga OS to run on) sold elsewhere. I have a plan. I want everyone back on board the Amiga bandwagon. It's about to go to the top.

Hmm, "the darknet". Never heard of it. But I'm not getting back into AltMe til R3 is out, and when I can get used to that and try Rebol again.

Website styles. I worked some more on them tonight. I don't know if anyone will like them or not. In fact, I've learned that I didn't really have any definite notions for a new one, because here I've done four different ones already--and perhaps will do a few more and maybe drop one or two before I'm satisfied in showing any. I like the current Rebol website, actually--maybe it's just a matter of moving text and links around. It won't be up to me anyway. :) But I can at least (maybe) submit ideas if that's the kind of thing Carl is looking for (we'll know when he says more). If not, it's no loss on my end--I'm always creating scratch ideas like this. They just add to continued practice as a graphic artist and web designer; keeps me in shape that way.

Apparently we have til after "DevBase" is released, regarding the creation of website suggestions/ideas. If anyone else is going to create any, you might get the jump on things and start now. Rough-out what you think the site should look like when a visitor comes to it, and the kind of image or images you think Rebol ought to display or present. Coloration, tone, style, etc. And get it ready to submit or send in for when Carl is ready to look at the ideas. Different ways to do it, I guess. I'm creating mine in CorelDRAW X3, keeping a lot of layers 'live' and saving a master .cpt file for each one--but the one I share or send out will be a .jpg or .gif about the size of 800 x 600 pixels or less (768 pixels wide is good for browsers only seeing 800 x 600, which is still good for a lot of people on the planet, even if others like me have computers/monitors capable of larger). I noted that the current Rebol website width is about that width right now. Actually 700 pixels wide.

EyeAm
26-Oct-2007 3:39:09
(at)Luis *administers Dopamine, revives Luis from his shock*

;-)

Luis
26-Oct-2007 3:47:02
_______/\___/\__/\/\/\/\_____________/\/\/\/\/\/\_/\_/\_

wha-

/thud/

EyeAm
26-Oct-2007 4:17:12
(at)-pekr- I went ahead and got AltMe again. I had it quite awhile back. I created a folder for RebolWebsiteIdeas, and put a preliminary glossy black version in there if you want to see just the .jpg for it. The world is "Elysium". :-)
Luis
26-Oct-2007 4:48:58
A recipe? For a Currant Flan? Wha-

/thud/

EyeAm
26-Oct-2007 4:53:18
Hey, AltMe can share an entire website (among only those visiting one's particular world/channel)? If the folder is designated public? (hopefully this feature gets built-in, if it doesn't already do it--and where one doesn't have to upload all the files *within* the folder). Maybe a warning should say, "You are about to share EVERYTHING within the folder you've selected. Do you wish to proceed?" :) And I wonder how that would work out if you share a sub-folder that links back to a webpage in a prior/larger folder. Guess I should check the AltMe page again. But, this would be great, to share among a few an offline website, in a peer-to-peer way. I already see the collaborative possibilities here, with the features available in what I downloaded/installed.
-pekr-
26-Oct-2007 4:54:33
Hi,

thanks, but - what is default user and pass to the world? :-) I like the word Elysium, it was used in my favourite movie - Gladiator :-)

EyeAm
26-Oct-2007 5:37:16
I'm not giving you the default user and pass to the world. :-) That's mine. Others should be able to join automatically.
EyeAm
26-Oct-2007 5:46:50
Try this, -pekr- as user name, 'pass' as password. :-) that's not the world password, just the new one. I can change it to something new once you join (?)

I gotta say, I kind of like AltMe. And this is powered by Rebol, eh? Lightweight, and rather cool so far.

-pekr-
26-Oct-2007 6:06:12
Aha, and how are we supposed to log-in? :-) There is no such thing as free/default login. You have to create some account, e.g. user: guest pass: guest and give us an access ....
claude
26-Oct-2007 6:44:56
well now we must wait for DevBase !!!!

and only after this point .........R3bol !!!

Luis
26-Oct-2007 6:59:43
Sooooo.... Where does that leave R2 for OS X? Even the AltMe for OS X is beta (when hasn't it been...). So, if I did decide to keep working with R2 whilst waiting for R3, I'd be working with a broken R2. Great. Always the bridesmaid.

Cheers,

Luis.

EyeAm
26-Oct-2007 7:25:34
(at)Luis: Hahahahaha!!!! :D

(at)-pekr-: I posted above. Try it. User: -pekr- Pass: pass

(at)claude: Just a little patience. A little more time. I'm sure everyone knows how time feels so short when the pressure is on, but when there is no pressure, it feels like there is a lot more time (one is more relaxed, and actually feels good working on things). On the bright side, Carl's post above seems to hint that DevBase is not all that far from being complete and ready to roll.

I should ask now: what exactly IS DevBase? I first thought it was a website headquarters for the developers; now I'm imagining more of a peer-to-peer collaboration tool. Especially since it has a 'release' forthcoming. What's up with that? :)

-pekr-
26-Oct-2007 7:44:32
(at)EyeAm:

1) can't connect. When you are running your world, beware that it runs on your local PC. Safeworlds.com is used only as kind of DNS (world-name lookup to prevent collisions). Stating that, you have to be behind public IP adress, and DST-NAT some ports in order to allow it to run :-) You need to DST-NAT port 5400 from your router to your local machine running AltME world you created. More here: http://www.safeworlds.com/guide/advanced.html#sect0.9.

2) What is DevBase? It seem to me being kind of SVN, just more limited :-) Maybe Carl gave precedence to something more simple and manageable, having REBOL/View front-end. As a preparation for Altissimo it is good aproach, alhough we might be reinventing the wheel here. But - those who had no experience with IOS and how it felt, might be wondering, why we are going "our own way" :-) FireSide to the rescue :-)

EyeAm
26-Oct-2007 7:59:16
(at)-pekr-

Try it now. I also put in your suggestions for: User: guest, Pass: guest.

Edoc
26-Oct-2007 8:19:08
Thanks for the update, Carl. Thanks for tending the flock.
EyeAm
26-Oct-2007 21:49:36
(at)-pekr- Scratch my AltMe world. I checked it at AltMe.com and it is unreachable (EVEN with the firewall temporarily Off). With the firewall, I added all of the recommend port settings. Too much of a hassle. Maybe they'll work on it and make it easier.
EyeAm
28-Oct-2007 0:32:07
Sorry for the LENGTHY posts I'm about to make (three in a row), but I've come up with some ideas on possible reorganization related to Rebol. Don't smack me, but here goes a lot:

Organization Ideas...

"Many hands can lighten the load for the heirarchy of chefs." :-)

R3 Documentation Manual

A documentation manual created.

* documentation manual provided via AltMe (or DevBase?)

* documentation manual provided via the Rebol website

Each iteration of the documentation manual being updated constantly by Carl and other R3

programmers/developers, as new things are added to R3.

One can quickly reference changes or new ideas, not lose sight of the form or shape R3 is taking; and, when

R3 is done, so shall be the manual and documention. Initial appearance: a skeleton outline of headings,

categories, sub-categories.

R3 Developer Collaboration

Two groups/leaders created. (under Carl's direction)

* one group/leader created for 'Commercial'

* one group/leader created for 'Non-Commercial'

An initial coordinator/leader is in each group, to help organize, set-up, and collate information. Similar

to documentation manual creation, each group brain-storms, fleshes-out and outlines any and all relevant

input received for what the respective group pertains.

Two webpages created. (hosted at the Rebol.com website)

* one webpage created for 'Commercial'

* one webpage created for 'Non-Commercial'

To generate a flood and flurry of input and enthusiasm, these two Rebol webpages include Survey- and

Suggestion forms or boxes (i.e., with questions like "In what area would you like to see Rebol go?", polls

like "Which of the following Rebol application types do you like the most?", and selectable options

following them).

Two AltMe Worlds created. (for those who can reach them with no trouble)

* one AltMe World created for RebolCommercial

* one AltMe World created for RebolNonCommercial

Like the two webpages, these two AltMe Worlds attract crowds of a similar, respective affinity. The Worlds

receive separate input and information. In short, each one has a different "clientele". The professional

people go to the Commercial area, the bedroom coders go to the non-commercial area. And almost 'the twain

shall never meet', except for the enthusiasts and programmers who visit both.

For anyone, it's only TWO major areas to keep up with.

* one AltMe World, webpage, group and group leader for 'Commercial'

* one AltMe World, webpage, group and group leader for 'Non-Commercial'

And beyond that, they report to Carl and his AltMe World, group, and Rebol.com

EyeAm
28-Oct-2007 0:35:05
post 2 of ideas...

New Rebol.com Website

A new Rebol.com website created with two areas.

* one area for 'Commercial' * one area for 'Non-Commercial'

Like a large 'cattle call' or 'casting call', with big fanfare and to generate enthusiasm and interest,

input and ideas, the new Rebol.com website goes minimalist on the front page and separates itself into two

main areas--one for 'Commercial' and one for 'Non-Commercial'. Displayed as clickable choices, side by side

under the REBOL logo.

The Commercial Area is for Professional & Corporate Use; Small Businesses, and Commercial Enterprises;

Invisible Branding Applications; Software Engineers.

The Non-Commercial Area is for Personal & Academic Use; Colleges, Universities, Schools, Studentry;

Charities; and Bedroom Coding Enthusiasts.

Each area, further divided for the types of use, the types of applications, the types of users, and the

needs of programmers.

For clarity, the Rebol.com webSITE will hold these two webPAGES in their own areas; like in the following

outline:

Rebol.com (main page / index.html)

1) Commercial Area (it's own folder or directory w/index.html page)
a) Commercial Survey- and Suggestion Page. "We'd love to know what you desire in Rebol!"
b) About Rebol (about.html page relating to Rebol's Commercial applications)
c) LANGUAGE menu in sidebar (Overview, Downloads, Developer,Library, License)
d) INTERNET OS menu (Overview, Advantages, Applications)
e) Logo & Text Link to the RebolCommercial AltMe World (or info page)
f) Logo & Text Link to the Commercial section of the Forums
g) Links (specific pointer to the Commercial heading of the links.html page)
h) ...(anything else, like Area-related BLOG)

2) Non-Commercial Area (it's own folder or directory w/index.html page)
a) Non-Commercial Survey- and Suggestion Page. "We'd love to know what you desire in Rebol!"
b) About Rebol (about.html page relating to Rebol's Non-Commercial applications)
c) LANGUAGE menu in sidebar (Overview, Downloads, Developer,Library, License)
d) INTERNET OS menu (Overview, Advantages, Applications)
e) Logo & Text Link to the RebolNonCommercial AltMe World (or info page)
f) Logo & Text Link to the Non-Commercial section of the Forums
g) Links (specific pointer to the Non-Commercial heading of the links.html page)
h) ...(anything else, like Area-related BLOG)

3) [Company/Info bar also appearing in each of the above two Areas]
a) About Rebol Technologies (mission.html)
b) Support (support.html)
c> Feedback (feedback.html)
d> Contact (contact.html)
e) Search Site
f) Logo & Text Link to the RebolCommercial AND RebolNonCommercial AltMe World (or info page)
g) Logo & Text Link to the Rebol Forums
h) Links (links.html page with all links to other people's Rebol websites and forums)
i) ...(anything else)

EyeAm
28-Oct-2007 0:35:41
3rd post of ideas...

BLOGS, News and Forums

Just a few notes here. No BLOGS or News on main/intro site. Kept minimalist, classy, clean and coherent.

It's the first impression (and so will be the first Area page clicked on). Each Areas shown with brief

description to help visitors know where they can navigate and what they'll find there.

A BLOG for Commercial-related Rebol and its commercial applications, in the Commercial Area.

A BLOG for Non-Commercial-related Rebol and its non-commercial applications, in the Non-Commercial Area.

Links in either Area (or on Info bar appearing there) for any other BLOGS.

Area-related News can *be* an Area-related BLOG, or not; appearing at the middle (or the majority) of each

respective Area.

A Forum created including two sections.

* a forum section for "Commercial"

* a forum section for "Non-Comercial"

The Forum (for easy setup, I suggest the one from eblah.com, or Ikonboard--as they're free) will also

include a areas for general posts, maybe even off-topic posts, and the usual Help sections (for the Forums

themselves). Maybe AltMe-related section, too. But in each forum section, one will find thread topics for

the Area-related Rebol applications, How-To information/help. A Forum for a Rebol Community, where end-users

can also ask for help and get it from other end-users who know (alleviating some of the questions pouring

into Rebol.com directly).

Links Page

Each Area will also include (perhaps in a sidebar) a link to the Links page, where one will find just that:

links to other people's Rebol websites. But, not stopping there, the link will *target* the Area-specific

heading on the links.html page (i.e., clicking on 'Links' from the Commercial Area, a visitor will be taken

immediately to the heading for Commercial Links on the main Links page). They'll still be able to scroll and

see the links for the other Area (i.e., Non-Commercial) if they want.

Someone will have to round-up all of the Rebol-related URLs for other people's websites, and put them in the

right category, neatly on the Links page.

Final Notes

This sets up encouragement for other Rebol enthusiasts, in many ways, and intuitive navigation to a

storehouse network of REBOL-related help and information. It makes everything more tight-nit and digestable;

draws together a Rebol community; and provides many different avenues for communication and contact (between

professionals and Rebol Technologies, the commpany and end-users, and enthusiasts among one another).

There is also, perhaps, be a section (on the Links page and/or in the related Areas) for Rebol Books for

sale (link to the very pages at Amazon.com?). These may also appear in a listing on the Products page.

Also, maybe an online Library or 'reading room' (with .pdf files). Although these could easily appear in a

Text (heading) section on the Downloads page.

The Company/Info bar can be designed as a dropdown menu, for a cleaner look (one of the best I've seen is

the "HV Menu"; found at http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex1/hvmenu/index.htm). If not a static info

'banner-type' bar (which can be placed at the top or bottom of the main page and the two Area's main pages,

then a dropdown menu can be placed at the top of each Area's main page.

That's all for now. :-) Hope this generates some interest, enthusiasm, and/or ideas.

-pekr-
28-Oct-2007 5:55:49
Some inspiration about how possible website could be divided into areas:

http://www.inetformfiller.com/

EyeAm
31-Oct-2007 10:14:50
(at)-pekr- and Carl: Got AltMe going (for now) :-) After (a very long story and very long trial-and-error hassles).

I reported what I *think* is a bug to SafeWorlds. Long story short: all ports and IP stuff configured right. 'Shut down' of AltMe server (that tiny little window that pops up alongside the Program window) is a No-no, I found out. I think it's a bug. It doesn't restart when clicking on the executable again afterward--only the Program will load up, but then no connections can be made (even from AltMe's website Checker). SO, while it's up, if you guys want to check out a hint of some (suggestion) graphics that are on the way from me, go to AltMe World "NewPlace", and log in as "visitor" with password "visitor". :)

Hopefully I'll hear back from Safeworlds soon about what to do (for I know if I shut my computer off, that little AltMe Server window (and attached code) goes with it, same as shutting it down. Then it'll be yet another new World to create (ugh). So check it while you can. Shows 'reachable' from their Checker webpage.

Sista X
31-Oct-2007 11:39:38
I just found this site today.

As an African American woman proudly employed in the programming world for over 20 years now, I can not truly beleive that in the year 2007 that their exits a programming language you have named R****?

The very pronountiation of thw word R**** honors the racist, pro-slavery American Civsl War era R****s!

This name R**** (I refuse to type it out) is an outragieous afront to black peoples everywhere in the world.

Must I point out to you that my ancestrial African people invented the first internet? Africa had an efficant wireless sonic based serial communications media network for thousands upon untold thousads of years. Until European imposed slavery and the violent implimentation of manifest destiny pogroms disrupted the cohesive fabric of my people's culture.

I implore you. Why can you not name your language after something better? Why not proud South African names like Bantu, Zulu or Mandela? Why not try to and reach out with your simple language to inspire black youth to achieve programming excellence in a culture sadly under represented in our industry?

This is truly a sad day for me.

EyeAm
31-Oct-2007 13:00:14
Well, I guess you wouldn't want to hear about the K3 component then, huh? Kidding ;-)

Seriously, Rebol has nothing to do with race. Programming languages, so far as I know, are neutral in that regard.

EyeAm
31-Oct-2007 16:26:07
I'm blaming Mercury Retrograde, you know that, right? :) -pekr-, I said 'visitor' and 'visitor' was the user/pass, but I forgot to add that. All this time, I had 'guest' and 'guest'. Now I have both. Also, '-pekr' and 'pass'. Sorry for the snafu. It's fixed. Now it's Halloween Party/Movie night...bye.
Ashley
31-Oct-2007 19:09:17
I'm South African and don't find the name REBOL (or rebel) offensive. It's a very US-centric view of the world that automatically equates rebel with the CSA (Confederate States of America) of 1861-65 ... rebels (those who defy authority) have existed as long as governments. In fact, Nelson Mandela who I also admire was a member of the ANC rebel movement, and there are countless rebel movements / organizations currently operating in Africa and the rest of the world as I write.

Now, if REBOL used terms or imagery directly from the ACW (American Civil War) such as the Confederate flag or the derogatory N***** word then you would have a valid point, but it doesn't. And if you find the word rebel offensive, what about other common-use words such as: South, Confederate (as in, "my confederates and I have a plan"), Cotton, Succession, States, Black, Slaves ... perhaps you should write to hard drive manufactures telling them that the use of "Master-Slave" is a racial slur, and that "Black Markets" are racially motivated. It's not the words that are the problem, but the *context* they are used in ... and REBOL is more context aware (and International) than any other language you'll come across.

robbie
31-Oct-2007 20:32:32
Hi Sista X

I am Scottish, and we have been rebelling now for around 2,000 years, starting out against the Romans ,whose word "bellum" started the whole thing off. The Confederates may have done some rebelling too, but never had first rights nor a monopoly on the word itself. Should you scan this web-site some more you will see that "Rebol" is an abbreviation, and all resemblance is coincidental, as they say in the movies.

This is just in the way of saying you are very off-topic, and still the only person in the world who has managed to take this huge linguistic leap.

Regards, Robbie

Norman
31-Oct-2007 23:29:48
Sista X.. You talk a lot of nonsense!

Sista X
1-Nov-2007 0:54:46
Gentlemen and gentlewomyn.

I was shocked into commenting here by the creator of R"""" stating in the website section "What is R****? Quick Facts":

* R**** is pronounced "r**-**" As in r**** yell or "r**** with a cause".

Do you not know from history that "the r**** yell" (of ancient Scotch and Irish clan warrior origins) was the famed battle cry of Southern Confederate forces and used by the post Civil War Ku Klux Klan during their nighttime attacks to terrorise, beat, burn and hang thousands of black people?

You say R**** is a harmless phrase.

"Arbeit macht frei" is also a seemingly "harmless" phrase to most people. It means "work makes you free". That phrase, embossed on the gates of the Auschwitz concentration camp during World War II, chills Jewish people to the very core of their souls. Why then, can you not understand my aversion to the R**** name?

Kaj
1-Nov-2007 0:57:48
Hey, I didn't know trolls live in Africa, too. ;-)
Henrik
1-Nov-2007 1:14:21
Relative Expression Based Object Language.

Sista X, that's all very interesting, but what do you think of REBOL, the programming language? :-) That's the important aspect that we, the users, care about, the philosophy of the language: Light weight, small and beautiful. That's why we use it. Not because it's named REBOL. This is the first time I've heard of such an association in the almost 10 years it as existed. One would think this would have come up earlier.

In fact the only negative association I've heard of before was that some people think that REBOL is a COBOL clone. :-)

I suppose one can come up with any name and it will have negative meanings in one particular language. REBOL could have been named POTATO, thus offending all potato haters.

Luis
1-Nov-2007 3:30:09
(at) Sista -: Inasmuch as REBOL is used in its proper context here, you take the blame for imposing it's historically negative context (if proved true: It's an interesting historical note on the use of SIMILARLY spelled words, I wonder if you would do the same for words like REFUEL and REDO. Other than that, you could just as easily be spreading FUD as a competitor). As languages go, all of them carry historical baggage, even if related in pronunciation regardless of how different the spelling. FOOD to a starving man is GOOD, and that's one vowel away from GOD: Does he have a religious experience by eating? Yes, no and maybe. Take your pick.

YOUR feelings on the matter are YOU OWN: If you would have noted the issue as a concern and not as an imposition, you might have had a more positive response to your post.

By the way: The uppercase 'x' in your name is offensive to me. I'll think of a reason for it.

Change the channel.

Luis
1-Nov-2007 3:43:03
(at)Sista-: Oh, btw: This (tries) to be a blog about REBOL, the programming language. If you would prefer to continue discussion start your own blog, provide a link.

Another btw: My opinions are my own. I do not work for Rebol.

rebolek
1-Nov-2007 5:36:14
Sista X: you are joking or crazy. I hope you're joking.
Kaj
1-Nov-2007 6:23:45
Sista X is a black troll who has just found new fertile land. Don't feed them.
-pekr-
1-Nov-2007 7:34:12
Sista-X,

I am usually polite guy, but could you please leave us alone? I have never heard about you in the REBOL land. And I am here from the very beginning. What is your contribution to the community actually? The way you behave you will be shortly marked as a troll :-)

NOONE here feels about REBOL the way you try to define its meaning. And that is the most important thing - you have your problem in associating it to some world movement inside your heart, and only you can help yourself. So - please, don't accuse us of something we are not guilty of ...

Peace, Petr

Arthur
1-Nov-2007 7:52:43
Kaj..

your comments are highly unappreciated and unproffesional..

This is not what the REBOL community is about. Please respect Rebol technologies, the users and readers of this site and all new visitors too.

Sista X
1-Nov-2007 8:11:53
As a REBOl community member, I appreciate and respect and understand your concerns. My loving response to you, and many who feel alike, is that, I have met, had lunch with both the creator of REBOL and his wife, and can honestly say that these are higly intelligent, respectful, professional and loving individuals, like many in this community. One of the sole reasons for the creation of REBOL is to free programmers like you and me from all the pains that other programming languages impose upon us. In other words REBOL is partly a huge humanitarian effort. Freeing programmers, saving businesses huge amounts of capital, allowing third world countries to immediately enter the distrubuted computing world at minimal cost etc...These have all been proven by many highly respected programmers in this community.

So besides the phonetic similarity to other perceived to be unpleasant words, REBOL is all about the future of distributed computing.

I highly encourage you to download and try using it, show it to your co-workers, friends, start a community group for those young African American kids who can benefit from using REBOL.

Welcome and I hope you stay with us and see the true meaning of REBOL.

Arthur
1-Nov-2007 8:16:35
The last post was from me not sista X

As a REBOl community member, I appreciate and respect and understand your concerns. My loving response to you, and many who feel alike, is that, I have met, had lunch with both the creator of REBOL and his wife, and can honestly say that these are higly intelligent, respectful, professional and loving individuals, like many in this community. One of the sole reasons for the creation of REBOL is to free programmers like you and me from all the pains that other programming languages impose upon us. In other words REBOL is partly a huge humanitarian effort. Freeing programmers, saving businesses huge amounts of capital, allowing third world countries to immediately enter the distrubuted computing world at minimal cost etc...These have all been proven by many highly respected programmers in this community. So besides the phonetic similarity to other perceived to be unpleasant words, REBOL is all about the future of distributed computing.

Sista X

I highly encourage you to download and try using it, show it to your co-workers, friends, start a community group for those young African American kids who can benefit from using REBOL.

Welcome and I hope you stay with us and see the true meaning of REBOL.

Luis
1-Nov-2007 8:28:36
I was wondering about that, since the first post 'Sista x 31-Oct-2007 11:39:38 I just found this site today.' And, all of a sudden: 'I have met, had lunch with both the creator of REBOL and his wife'. Just wondering why you posted as Sista x.
Arthur
1-Nov-2007 8:41:55
Trying to blog with kids by your side is not recommended.
Luis
1-Nov-2007 9:20:08
I've found velcro, blu-tack and plasticine perfect for keeping them busy, erm, entertained for a while.
EyeAm
1-Nov-2007 11:40:42
As imagined, booting up the computer today and double-clicking the AltMe executable caused no server (tiny window indicating the server, anyway) to load with the program window. New AltMe world name if I wanted (which I don't right now). :) So much for that. [b]There has got to be a better way[/b]. At least all the files are on my computer and not strewn across several AltMe worlds from the last few days. When I came back from my Halloween activities last evening (okay, early this morning), I saw one visitor had been to my AltMe channel. Maybe someone saw the website style ideas I had posted there, I don't know. I guess I'll now take a breather and wait for DevBase, R3, and then the small website team (perhaps someone else will have a more stable 'channel' and I can just log into there and upload sample ideas).

And pertaining to collaboration/contribution woes, anyone else having the same AltMe problem by chance? World created, works fine, til you shut down the tiny window (i.e., server) and it doesn't reload again (causing the 'cannot connect' message; and therefore won't take your password)?

Sista X
1-Nov-2007 12:05:20
I have NOT met with the creator of R****. That post is a bogus lie posted by an imposter!

Certainly the comments about COBOL users and "potatoe eaters" were uncalled for.

Since we love to contrive words here. It is obliviously certain to me now that you are all so very "bignorant". (bigoted and ignorant)

From this and other chiding remarks I see that you do not take my concerns seriously. This is truly distressing to me as I am evaluating "World Class" program languages for future use by a major Fortune 500 company. I can not recommend a "Wordly Crass" programming language to my African American bosses pronounced R**** anymore than one named N*****, COON, TOM, PICANNINY, MAMMY, BUCK, SAMBO, JIGABOO, or BUCKWHEAT, no matter how contrived and self-satisfied you all seem to be with the "true meaning" of the contrived acronym.

There also seems to be a past derogatory history here. The Spanish word "amiga" (not meaning as supposed "girlfriend", but more precisely "a female friend") on very many Islands in the Philippines is sadly interpreted as a euphemism for "prostitute".

Truly sad.

Norman
1-Nov-2007 13:10:46
...Did I hear something???.. mmmm must be the wind...

Lets pick up the trail again, I think the wind will go east...

Greg
1-Nov-2007 13:23:17
You're making a big deal of HOMONYMS. Homonyms are not new, there's even a word for it.

Dou you know what Nike means in french? (Nique) And what about Dick's stores?

You maybe have friends with a name you wouldn't like for you, does it make them bad friends???

Hopefully, everybody knows that Dick's is a sporting store and it's not for adult only.

EyeAm
1-Nov-2007 13:43:08
I think it's neat that the 'O' in the REBOL *logo* forms the astrological symbol for the Sun; and that in esoteric teachings (particularly a book on Enochian magick that I have) the table for the Sun relates to '666'. Just add to that Rebol being 'rebel' (i.e., rebel angel) and you can see further associations. ;-) The greatest rebel of them all, right? Haha. Though I'm almost absolutely sure Carl never knew this or thought of it when creating Rebol.
Brudda Y
1-Nov-2007 13:55
I completely understand the distaste associated with a rebol yell. As wikipedia points out [see "rebol yell"] it's a sound derived from native american calls.

Who'd want any association with redskins? Certainly not me and sista X.

Not happy about Ruby either. Via rhyming slang it means curry [Ruby Murray] and thus connects with asian cuisine. Let's avoid that too.

-pekr-
1-Nov-2007 14:01:31
EyeAm,

you have to run AltME in server mode :-) Typically it is altme.exe -s "your-world-name" -p 5400 or something like that. Put that one line into some small .bat or .cmd file and run it after the start of your OS ...

Also, try to run altme.exe -? to get AltME options listed ...

-pekr-
1-Nov-2007 14:15:45
Sista X, I think that original poster who mistakenly put your name to his post explained it in adjacent post.

What I actually think is, that you are really just trolling here. I work as an IT manager for one large nutritional supplements production company, and I really don't care, if technology is called pig, potatoe, prostitute, whatever. My bosses don't care neither and I REALLY doubt, that your bosses do care too.

In fact, what is sad, is your point of view. I love technology, I respect technology. But I would never ever compare its name with some bad historical or recent movements. If so, then I would really consider myself visiting a psychologist, because there would be something for him to solve.

My opinion is, that ppl should not be thin skinned. I try to judge ppl's intentions, not just judge upon how they look. So please, stop being critical upon REBOL.

EyeAm
1-Nov-2007 15:30:46
I'm running AltMe from the desktop. If it doesn't work like it's supposed to, out of the box, it's not for end-users and I will summarily dump it after not too much longer. We'll see if Safeworlds posts an update that fixes the problem. (they need to update their online, from-2006, manual, too; it's missing some of the newer features of AltMe, not to mention possible other things which might be of help here).

I am not supporting an incomplete tool that I have to complete or fix or finish building just so I can do what it is that I originally want to do. I don't think many want to do that, either. It gets in the way of them doing what they want to do. No one wants to have to stop and make the tool (unless that *is* their job) just so they can go on and do what they ultimately want to do. I'm sorry, but I'm up on my soap box about this one.

AltMe is a tool. AltMe is a 'server' in itself. Built on Rebol. It promises the ability of collaboration and sharing of stored items like graphics and other files. These kinds of commands, -pekr-, are supposed to already be a part of the program, ready for use.

From my perspective, I installed it; it should work. I have configured the ports like I should (obviously, it worked, as I got a visitor to the created world; so I know I configured those right). It's a fault with the program, not being able to keep the server open, for whatever reason that may be. Safeworlds should fix it. And why wouldn't that code be in there in the first place, to keep it from closing and not opening again? It's either a problem of the port not being released when the server shuts down (so it can access the same port again when restarting) or something else.

*steps off soap box* :)

EyeAm
1-Nov-2007 16:21:30
the .bat and .cmd idea didn't work.
-pekr-
1-Nov-2007 16:44:30
EyeAm,

I think that you are exagerrating :-) The only thing it misses is the automatic start of your World server, once you reboot your PC.

Yes, the app should offer that, but what is the problem with the command line? Just go to the directory where your altme.exe is located. You should see there /servers subdirectory.

In the directory where your altme.exe is, create my-server.cmd with following content:

start altme -s "my-world" -p 5400

The 'start will cause your cmd black console window to disappear ... If it does not run, try ctrl alt del to see, if there are not some broken altme processes running in the background ...

EyeAm
1-Nov-2007 17:28:29
Okay, I had to change the port number (in the created .cmd file) to the one which apparently registered with my world when it was first created. It works now.

Thank you, -pekr-! :)

And, yes, Safeworlds should work that into the program somehow, more transparent (hidden). AltMe should: scan for available ports (within a given range) and utilize *any* of them that are open. Sort of like those 'rollover' phone numbers when calling a BBS back in the day (whereas the BBS had ten numbers anyone could call, but one they advertised and it rolled you over to another so the next person could get in if they didn't know all ten). Or, alternatively, AltMe just shouldn't fix a port number to a given world (except within a range, if it has to).

NOW (with Mercury going Direct just less than two hours ago, haha)... feel free to join me at my tentative world 'NewPlace' (user/pass: 'visitor'; user/pass: 'guest/guest').

I've put in some Rebol website ideas to look at. I, myself, am partial to the Metallic Gold & Glossy Black one--just seems so sophisticated and elegant to me, and one that would suit corporate as well as non-commercial areas. Though I probably wouldn't have subsequent pages the same as the splashy entrance--from there, the two major areas could deviate, with (for example) corporate lightening up a bit but still going with gold, maybe against a textured white or something. That would still fit in. Color themes are important for consistency--one way to tie together varied pages or info. Black backgrounds for corporate pages are less frequent than white; but then, black is for the bold. It does make a statement. *shrugs* :) Depends on what's wanted, I guess. I have others posted, too, so I guess I took a neutral route, and am open for suggestions, ready for the website team (whomever they will be).

Sista X
2-Nov-2007 0:47:11
I really don't need comments on my skin "thickness" or hints for my "black console window to disappear" to tell me what you all think of having a black woman in your field of endevere. Get over it boys.

On to more important R**** short comings.

1: No built in SQLite or other dll support? Even Ruby has this. LOL! 2: No embedded web browser component in the gui? Ever hear of wxWindows? 3: No local copy in R**** View of Help Documents? Ever hear of laptops not being connected to the net 24/7? 4: Lettering on R**** View buttons very small. Must look very nice on obsolete 640x480 1997 displays. 5: Black lettering under Icons on ugly dark green background? Why no cursor hover highlighting?

Please! My poor eyes cannot take any more!

Sadly, the R**** hype machine does not match user first experience!

EyeAm
2-Nov-2007 1:31:31
It doesn't have high-tech pest control, either, but I think that's being worked on as we speak. ;-)
0scrooge0
2-Nov-2007 2:21:34
It seems to me you all went 'slightly' off topic. :-)
Luis
2-Nov-2007 2:40:49
(at) Sista: Now you're calling me, and others, racist ignorant bigots. I'd like to point out to you that you are being racist (your comments point to us doing this deliberately against whatever culture you allege yourself to be from), ignorant (that we don't understand your point of view, noted from your repetitiveness) and a bigot (by not accepting that we have our own opinions on the matter and yourself). You better reconsider the use of your COMPUTER (which in Spanish sounds like 'CON PUTA' ('with prostitute') or the properly translated version 'Ordenadora' (something which 'orders/arranges' things) which is OBVIOUSLY sexist.

Oh, by the way: I represent the largest company on the planet. We look down on the Fortune 500.

-pekr-
2-Nov-2007 3:19:30
Sista X, having person like you in my team, you would be imediatelly fired. Not because of skin color, because I don't care about that - but I do care about constructive aproach. All you show here is disrespect to other ppl, complaining, whinning, trolling.

WTF are you talking about in regards to "black" console windows? It was not part of reply to your post. And it was instruction to EyeAm, of how to start AltME server without side issues, not some encoded racist remark!

In regards to REBOL, and I repeat - REBOL, not some R****, what are you talking about once again?

1) Have you EVER looked into rebol.org? At least three protocols for SQLite. If you want it to have inbuilt into REBOL executable, then I really worry about your technical experience, because linking to libraries is here for ages.

2) WebBrowser "component", right? You mean that limited VxWorks one, right?

3) Ever heard of console help? Ever heard of website docs? Ever heard of small rebol download size? But maybe you prefer other tools, which spread in tens of MBs on your hd?

4) Lettering on REBOL buttons is ok here, and I am using 1280x900 notebook.

5) Yes, you can compare with .... with ... give me a brake, with what actually? Ruby, Python, don't have anything like ViewTop? Hmm, interesting ...

Sadly, we have to suffer such posts like yours ... if you don't like REBOL, you have tonnes of other possibilities. So why don't you just find some ideal land of happiness?

This was my last reply to you, unless you start behaving in a different way and post some constructive stuff.

EyeAm
2-Nov-2007 4:44:35
Hey, -pekr-, that's another thing that could possibly go into a new Rebol website: a head-to-head comparison chart or table of Rebol versus the other similar messaging/scripting languages.

"Rebol. Small footprint, BIG STICK." ;-P

Luis
2-Nov-2007 4:57:55
(at)EyeAm: And then the inevitable speed comparisons.
Sista X
2-Nov-2007 11:42:13
I am sorry if the Emperor R**** has no clothes talk angers you all here so much. I am tasked to evaluate R**** for my company, no matter how rude or insensitive you peoples are to my concerns. Reports for R**** 3 are very glowing and impressive. I have two advanced education degrees and I know what I am talking about. R**** while shiny on the outside has many rough edges inside the shiny box.

* Claim: R**** small downlaod size? But in fact, Python was selected above all mighty languages for inclusion in the tiny memory requirement OLPC (One Laptop Per Child) program. If R**** which I read claims open source models and is claimed to be so VERY easy to use, should it not be on OLPC machines? Can it even be used so?

* Note on IE componet: Surly you have seen Active-X embedding of Internet Explorer in custom GUI's i.e. RSS news readers? Or do you not understand this capability and or concept?

* It is my understanding from the website that database and direct dll interface requires:

REBOL/Command - The Professional Version "Adds database access, libraries, encryption, shell access, and more."

Our clients in the so called third world are creating in field solutions that preclude their gauranteed access to the internet or having large funds for all of them to buy premium developer access tools. Which now would be also be obsoleted by pending R**** 3 release.

* More difficencies.

6: Language support issues. Scintilla componet for View editor missing.

7: Console programming issues. Stdin amd stdout protocols hijacked by proprietary console routines. Precludes use by industry standard IDE softwares?

8: Missing Open SSL? Secure internet transmissions require upgrade costs.

As you would so charmingly say, WTF?

Greg
2-Nov-2007 13:54:22
Sista, I could probably help you drafting a comparison chart, plus and minus of Rebol, ... But I don't want to help someone who doesn't respect others. You should not be shocked by homonyms, you're not a child!
Norman
2-Nov-2007 15:26:31
Its is confirmed, data pollution exists...;-)
EyeAm
2-Nov-2007 16:15:25
(at)Greg: That might just work. One really negative detractor of Rebol (Sista X) plus one really positive evangelist of Rebol (couldn't be me, I'm awaiting R3 so I can properly evaluate everything) to create the comparison chart for the website. And really hash out both sides so it is extremely fair and no one can dispute anything. :-)

*drops asbestos suit at Greg's feet.*

EyeAm
2-Nov-2007 16:31:45
(at)Sista X: For all the deficiencies you name for Rebol, you apparently don't understand that it has been done by only FIVE or fewer people during its existence. Adoption of your "missing" features may well be slow, or it may well just mean the creators of Rebol have a different plan altogether.

There have been about five million downloads of Rebol in ten years. An average of about 400,000 a year.

All that said, rest assured that I don't see Rebol being put on the defensive as you seem to be trying to do. :-) FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Death) won't work. There is only Faith, Certainty, and Life with undeterred creative artists. And they can take their time doing what it is they naturally want to do (in this case, the programmers of Rebol are creative CODERS, so...) It's a bit cliche', but "it'll be ready when it's ready", and it'll have what they want in it, as well as what they want to put in of others' requests.

As I understand it, Rebol might be providing some new ways to do things, so I would guess that some of what one might think is missing...might just be done in a more elegant manner.

"Elegance Through Simplicity."

EyeAm
2-Nov-2007 16:48:51
Download sizes:

Rebol: .6 MB

Python: 10.5 MB

Oh yeah. (shaking head up and down) There's a new outlaw in town. ;-)

robbie
2-Nov-2007 17:49:11
Hi Sista X

You are free to download (at varying length) Rebol, Perl, Ruby, Squeak, Modula2, Forth, C, Python and very many other languages, and you will be able to compare their features against your defined wish list.

Each has merits - depends what you need. Personally I look for a low learning curve and powerful features. Rebol has these and is a very effective tool for many programming tasks.

In any event, Rebol and these other languages are effectively free gifts from talented programmers. Please be kind to the givers: their only obligations are to paying customers and themselves.

Regards, Robbie

Cooter
3-Nov-2007 10:47:37
quicksort=: (($:(at)(<#[) , (=#[) , $:(at)(>#[)) ({~ ?(at)#)) ^: (1<#)

==> Plus la peine d'attendre aussi longtemps

EyeAm
3-Nov-2007 10:51
And the small band of mystics knew the answer to everything was: 42. :-P
Seymour
3-Nov-2007 12:35:17
feed me!
Audrey2
3-Nov-2007 14:27:04
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BGRN39oifsE
maxim olivier-adlhoch
3-Nov-2007 21:28:26
sista X:

you where a standard fare troll until you started to actually give REASONS for which you downsize REBOL.

this actually means you have the merit of being a higher order troll, one who can reason (in your weird strange way). By the way, in the TOTAL 10 year history of REBOL there has been only ONE singular, catalogued, occurence of a troll.

I know NO OTHER SUBJECT OR TOPIC related to programming or not which has had so few. With your political edge... I'm almost tempted to call you Mr Johnson.

I am a very supportive critic of the OLPC, in fact, I am tempted by the buy one and give one campaign. REBOL is very like the logical cousin of those systems. Based from the ground up for simplicity and allowing human communication.

I'll post just once in reply to your claims, and don't even bother a reply cause really, I don't care about YOUR appraisal.

what I do care is the FUD which gets collected in search engines, so as one who would read this forum at least he can know the following:

*If you know only one db, one text editor and one programming language. It think, you might do yourself a favour and do a bit of learning about just what computer science is to begin with. you might discover all of what REBOL HAS, in fact. Cause its obvious you cannot understand the majority of half of the list given. In the least, you would realise that you owe a level of respect for its capabilities in such a small footprint.

*name ANY language you want and for every problem you give REBOL, any half-decent developper can easily poke one at the other language. This is a never ending list of stupidity. evaluating a language by what it doesn't have is like saying milk is a bad engine lubricant, cause the grease within it doesn't stand your engine's temperature.

*Most of the problems you list are CREATED by the industry itself. So who cares when rebol doesn't need half of the things you specify to begin with for 99% of work.

*REBOL IS NOT open source. Doesn't claim to be, but yess it has a FREE version. if OLPC is thinking of having REBOL on their systems... call REBOL Technologies. You'll get a free unlimited license for life for the pro features. and yes it should run on it, or at the very least if its got any standard OS and graphic libs.

now, I do very advanced programming, and the need for libs is not very high in rebol. It has most things integrated. So don't go creating issues.

and just for the record, doing a news feed aggregator in REBOL takes an evening. I've done so myself, so please before sending FUD publicly... ask a few questions. You might even be surprised that REBOL is about people rebelling against the "evil" of needing to purchase hundreds of dollars in IDE (or having to waste several times more in salary, geting "free" ones to work).

I was able to create a working neural network in one day from scratch using it (that is, using no external libs, or previous code base).

rebol is against having to learn 5 languages in order to make dynamic web sites.

rebol is against needing 100 lines of code (using python, for example, my other work language) to specify a (very simple) GUI in which you actually specify a few attributes. We won't even start with its handling. btw tools like Trolltech's Qt don't make it any faster or cheaper.

rebol is against even NEEDING to learn complex "frameworks" or cryptic things like sockets (for newbies) to do something as basic as accessing the net.

REBOL wants to be your secret swiss army knife, its the fastest prototyping engine PERIOD. Why are you so threatened by REBOL that you start putting it down? The question begs to be asked.

maxim olivier-adlhoch
3-Nov-2007 21:29:56
to every one ELSE:

am I the only one who read the first sentence of Carl's post as:

If you're watching REBOL from outside the "private HELLS" of various AltME worlds, ...

? hehehe

maxim olivier-adlhoch
3-Nov-2007 21:51:24
my older kid just turned 8 today...

it just hit me that its the age I started to become a coder (and filled up the 16kb RAM of my trs-80 for my very first "advanced" magic number game)... hehe

This game had locale (english and french) and difficulty levels hehe. It Even had probabilistic profiling (at least as far as an eight year old can think about such things hehe), it would try to chose numbers based on how you go at finding the answer. hoping you'd suck even more hahahhaa.

seems dad will be opening up a new world of fun to his kid this year, now that he can read and write. I shudder at what kind of game I would have done back then, if I had had access to REBOL. 24-bit graphics? SOUND? GHZs speeds, GBs of RAM, real time video, Hard disks... man I was using a 4 color computer on a black and white TV! hahaha :-)

I remember, I had to optimise my code and replace all occurence of all variables into single letters (count becoming c, and thus saving 4 bytes everytime I used count!) , rewrite sentences so I'd trim a few bytes more in order to save enough bytes to finish my game hehe. I even had to renumber my lines (trusty old basic) so that my gosubs would take smaller numbers hahaha

man, times have changed!

BackInTheDay
3-Nov-2007 22:00:06
10 Print, "Hello, World" 20 Goto 10
rosjonr
3-Nov-2007 23:49:54
Hi All

As a quiet observer of this blog, and user of REBOL here in South Africa, I suggest we all get back to why we are here in the first place......

To make REBOL a SUCCESS where we deploy it...

There will ALWAYS be negative users and commentators....

The best medicine in my opinion is to ignore negative people who you can hardly reason with anyway..... and use constructive criticism to improve the target thereof....

EyeAm
4-Nov-2007 2:02:27
Oh, this could be quite fun. :) I threw a test page (html) into the Rebol-related AltMe folder of my created World, just to see how well it worked and what it's capabilities were. I of course added said page via AltMe, and it had an incorporated graphic that was already sitting in the folder. Long story short, "Yes, Virginia, AltMe serves up webpages." Beautiful. :) Test demos can be shared. This can come in handy for instances when graphics (onmouseovers, and the like) speak louder than words or descriptions ever could.

I'm getting there (getting ready for when Carl is ready to talk website reinvention). Just added a bunch of ideas to some checklists for the website-related group (won't see that unless added to the group).

This is just so awesome. SIMPLICITY, woohoo! Just what I was looking for, too, as mentioned in an earlier blog response/post. :-)

"The REBOLution Has Begun!"

EyeAm
5-Nov-2007 4:43:44
To help ensure Rebol's success,

1. Rebol's existence must be known (i.e., marketing/advertising). If it's not, it hasn't a chance to grow;

2. Rebol's concept must be understood (the fewer the words necessary to make this happen, the better--and in keeping with the 'spiritual style guide' of Rebol itself);

3. Rebol's applicable uses must be realized by end-users (i.e., show interested people the examples in the field).

Satisfy those three, and the end-users or customers will take it from there. They'll either buy it (that which is for sale), or they will download it (that which is for free), or not.

Examples In The Field Somehow, some way--on the Rebol.com website or elsewhere--something similar to those 'human interest stories' on news programs must be duplicated for Rebol. Customer "testimonials", and more than that. "How Rebol is used by people like you", followed by articles about different field uses--and these articles organized or in places where such people would be looking for more info about Rebol, or if it can work in their given field.

Example: "I use Rebol-based apps all the time in [work sector]. I even programmed a few apps myself, it was so easy, and we now use them at work. I made [this] so that [that] could be a lot easier." ...and so on. Such testimonials could come (in part) from the survey page, or general feedback, or elsewhere. The only place I can think of it being best done is at the main Rebol website, where people would no doubt go for more info. A central repository for showing the average person what and where and how and why, etc., with links to How-To's, or books to buy. And it should serve everyone along the learning curve, from point zero on over to developers/programmers (Rebol.net).

People would like to read how others are using Rebol; how another average person programmed using Rebol, and created a cool application. They'll want to know the 'alphabet' of Rebol's commands, so they can make their 'words' and structure their 'sentences'. The average person will be turned off by programming, coding, and software engineering. But they'll listen if the language is simple and easy to understand. No one wants anything complicated, complex, or hard to decipher. They'll start out with "I want to do [this]", and then they'll want to know two things about Rebol: CAN Rebol do it? and HOW? And if they're still interested, they'll want to know WHERE to start for further information.

For the more advanced--especially those using other languages than Rebol, but who are in a position to buy and employ Rebol if it works for them--they'll also need to know how much easier things can be by using it. One of the hammers which can help knock down walls will be Rebol's small size--consistently repeated the world over until it sinks in, irrevocably attached to what becomes a household word: Rebol. Small but powerful. Comparisons with other scripting/messaging languages will have to be made; and battles waged. The most interesting part of that is sure to be where the feature-for-feature comparison runs aground when the other language "can't do what Rebol can" (and certainly not without adding more bloat or inconvenience).

EyeAm
5-Nov-2007 5:44:27
(at)Carl: Is Rebol 'the bad boy of the computing world'? >:-) Is it going to rebel, buck the establishment and the status quo? Go against the grain? Make the equivalent of loud banging noises at dawn in the presence of those with hangovers? :)

Regarding, naturally, the reinvention and reshaping of Rebol. ;-)

EyeAm
5-Nov-2007 9:16:11
:-\

wow. some enthusiasm here, people. You're all quiet as little mice.

Animated Rebol 'nuke' banner and button uploaded to my AltMe world if anyone wants to see (or snag) it.

*waves Rebol flag, "Rah-rah... ...um...rah." (crickets chirping)

Luis
5-Nov-2007 9:22:42
Cue tumbleweed...

(at)EyeAm: I'd have a look, but not keen on the AltMe BETA for OSX.

maxim olivier-adlhoch
5-Nov-2007 10:29:20
(at)EyeAm

enthusiasm... just using REBOL daily needs enthusiasm ;-)

its not the language, its being on the fringe all the time.

having to explain that simple and incapable are not synonyms. its trying to explain that simplicity multiplies and complexity negates. Most of what you are proposing has been discussed at large I am sure, even with Carl.

The problem is that Carl is just one man, and as any loving father, he wants to be there to watch every step of his evolving baby. So, not much happens without his nod.

Do understand, that there is silent appreciation and a genuine longing for all/most of what you propose, by myself at least, but by many other of us "oldies" I am sure as well.

Its just fun to see new blood all exited about REBOL and its software model. As REBOL goes, I'm one of the old timers (even if I'm only 32 ;-). I remember eagerly waiting for my version or REBOL/VIEW on an SGI computer... darn, that almost feels like another life entirely today.

so be like the hobbits, and dont despair, things REALLY are happening. Carl is not ignoring anything. even if he does look like he's on another planet sometimes... he's just swamped by life like most of us are. You know, unlike many people who work hard, Carl, actually HAS a life outside of REBOL (I wonder how much Cindy agrees with me here hahahah). Life has a nack of being "interesting" sometimes and pulling you from your mission... but the quality of someone like Carl, is that he always comes back to it. Hell, he's been tinkering with REBOL all his life (even though its had many forms and names).

When R3 is ready, don't worry, the "marketing" side of things will get rolling.

And you'll see many of the "Gurus", Enthusiasts, pros, experts, come flailing to the hype. Hell we might even get a few of the people I miss within the community back on the train. Now THAT would be a sign of good things to come. Some of the people that have been around for a while either are or where genuinely good, smart and caring. Not many communities attract such a sweet crowd. I guess you have felt it too.

so on behalf of all the long-time users, I say, go on, don't mind us, we are there reading, listening, happy someone else is adding their voice, effort and talent to this cause we all have pushed a little further. Another voice really helps, it always does.

Viva la Rebolution. ;-)

EyeAm
5-Nov-2007 11:15:57
(at)maxim: If you're an "old timer" at 32, I guess that makes me "ancient". :)

maxim olivier-adlhoch
5-Nov-2007 13:04:11
hehehe (I did mean as a REBOL user, I'm sure you did decode that ;-)

not many of us still around which remember a time before /view. Even less of us, I guess, which even used it!

Sista X
5-Nov-2007 13:27:32
I have run two versions from command line of my simple program file "test.r"

;------ Version 1 correct answer: a GT b (with NO errors)

REBOL[ Title: "test" ]

a: 1

b: -1

if a > b [print "a GT b"]

either [print "a LE b"]

halt

;------ But version 2 does not print, not even an error!

REBOL[ Title: "test" ]

a: -1

b: 1

if a > b [print "a GT b"]

either [print "a LE b"]

halt

;------

This language is most certainly defective in the most basic aspects of aplication of logicals!!!

EyeAm
5-Nov-2007 13:39:48
(at)maxim: Rebol has only been around nine years (tenth anniversary in 2008). Carl was with VisCorp and Bill Buck before that, trying to get hold of Amiga Inc. IP/assets. :-)

(at)Sista X: Of course the second one won't print. You have 'a' set by default to a negative, with your 'if' statement asking it to print only when a is greater than b.

----- "Remember remember the fifth of November "Gunpowder, treason and plot. "I see no reason why gunpowder, treason "Should ever be forgot..." (heh. Guy Fawkes; an ancestor of mine, hehe.)

Greg
5-Nov-2007 13:51:38
print either a > b ["a GT b"]["a LE b"]
Sista X
5-Nov-2007 14:21:31
In the second case does it not follow that "either" should be executed as swiftly and surely as your fine Lucky Charm eating Guy Fawkes after the "if" test fails when a = b ?

This means a faulty Guy Fawkes logic bomb condition can exist in code that fails to go off when the variable triggers it.

Brian Tiffin
5-Nov-2007 14:35:06
Sista X; Like many things, REBOL's handling of conditional expressions is not quite mainstream. One of the beautiful things about REBOL; simple, powerful, but not "normal".

In the examples below >> specifies console prompt.
>> if a > b [print "A gt B"]
>> if/else a > b [print "A gt B"] [print "A le B"]
>> either a > b [true-case] [false-case]

There is no if cond [] either [] construct. There used to be an if cond [] else [] but that slowed the interpreter down (as far as I know) as was deprecated. Most developers use the either syntax and you will rarely see if/else. (And yes, some seasoned REBOL developers are not huge fans of the either expression but use it nonetheless.)

But try
>> print either a > b ["A gt B"] ["A le B"]

as conditionals are just expressions and the results propogate out. Nice feature. In this case the result being the strings that get passsed to print. When REBOL evaluates strings, it simply results in the string. Another nice feature.

To be honest I'm surprised REBOL didn't answer back with

** Script Error: either expected true-block argument of type: block

given your test code. It does here with 1.3.2.

Not to sound trite; stick with it for a while. For every one thing that seems weird in REBOL there are ten other things that just seem weirder. :) Soon you'll start to wonder how programmers using other languages live without the power and expressiveness.

Cheers

EyeAm
5-Nov-2007 15:42:06
(at)SistaX: no idea whatsoever about what you mean in either sentence. Guy Fawkes quote was there just because today is November 5th (and V For Vendetta made him popular all over again; and he's a relative up the line somewhere).

(at)Brian: Yeah, I thought 'else' should have been in the place of 'either'. Makes more sense to me.

Ingo
5-Nov-2007 15:46:10
It's the 'halt, if you remove the last line, it returns an error (Rebol/Core 2.6.2.4.2). I'd call it a bug. To find the parameters of either, halt is applied, but as 'halt stops the current interpreter thread and drops back to the console, the error in the either parameters is never found.

(at) Sista X Have you already learnt about 'help? Using help on either you'll get (on the rebol prompt):

>> help either
USAGE:
    EITHER condition true-block false-block 

DESCRIPTION: If condition is TRUE, evaluates the first block, else evaluates the second. EITHER is a native value.

ARGUMENTS: condition -- (Type: any) true-block -- (Type: block) false-block -- (Type: block)

Which explains the usage of either. And every function in Rebol is explained like that.

Using 'what

>> what
* [value1 value2]
** [number exponent]
...
Gives you a list of all Rebols functions.

And if you want to see some really good Rebol snippets, the use the source ...

>> source what
what: func [
    "Prints a list of globally-defined functions." 
    /local vals args here total
][
    total: copy [] 
    vals: second system/words 
    foreach word first system/words [
        if any-function? first vals [
            args: first first vals 
            if here: find args /local [args: copy/part args here] 
            append total reduce [word mold args]
        ] 
        vals: next vals
    ] 
    foreach [word args] sort/skip total 2 [print [word args]] 
    exit
]

This works for Rebol mezzanine functions (as opposed to e.g. natives). That everytime you use 'help and see a line like this:

WHAT is a function value.

Steeve
5-Nov-2007 18:04:09
(at)Sista X: To avoid misunderstanding, you should first RTFM

I know this is not elegant but people who think they have discovered a major bug when they know nothing about REBOL, it made me bristle. What you expressed about "defective in the most basic aspects of aplication of logicals" reveals your ignorance of what you speak.

Sorry folks

-pekr-
5-Nov-2007 23:57:59
So, will we historically reach first aboe 100 comments blog item? :-)
EyeAm
6-Nov-2007 0:04:54
(at)-pekr-: Of course. The REBOLution has begun. ;-)

Check this out: http://youtube.com/watch?v=493ljyoox6o

Luis
6-Nov-2007 1:56:18
Sooo.... Everyone waiting on the edge of the 100 post... Who'd be foolish enough to do the 99er and let someone else swoop on the prize...?
Ingo
6-Nov-2007 2:22
Dunno, do you?

I'm not even sure this post is worth being the 100th ... ;-)

Luis
6-Nov-2007 3:07:07
Ha ha! I've- oh, rats.
EyeAm
6-Nov-2007 6:11:31
Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood EyeAm, to Carl and those working in the firestorm behind-the-scenes:

You are on the beach in Tahiti. There is no rush at all. :) You've all the time in the world--only led by the creative muse, and inspiration.

There's no rush to get anywhere, because you're already there--where it counts.

Remember Zen Meditation? ;-)

Peace Is Creation. Your thought for the day(s).

"Happiness is relative to the speed and velocity at which one obtains a goal."--EyeAm

Luis
6-Nov-2007 7:30:49
If it is a case of 'It'll be ready when it's ready': Why isn't that posted in big letters on the main page? I'm getting the impression that it is the company philosophy. Shouldn't that be expounded on the front page? I see nothing wrong with the philosophy per se: What I didn't like was having to find out about it in blog posts. If I had known earlier I wouldn't have hung around that long. Again, I see nothing wrong with it in principle, it detracts from the impression of the website, otherwise I don't think you'd get as many frustrated 'where is R3' (there, I said it) comments.

Inasmuch as there are those comfortable with laying back and waiting while they code on their (stable) Win32 release, there are those that are chomping at the bit waiting for a stable multi-platform-feature-parity-does-what-it-says-on-the-tin release (is that R3?). Each time you say 'it will be ready when it's ready' drives the possibility further away in my mind (I am speaking solely in my opinion).

That is the impression I get. Therefore I barely touch the beta (yes, there are other things to use if I can't get them done with Rebol becasue I'd rather not use the beta) and when/if R3 comes out, I start from the bottom.

And that stinks.

EyeAm
6-Nov-2007 7:56:35
Luis, if you read Carl's talk at that show in Paris, you'd know that the user base is purposely being kept low for as long as possible, to reduce what I guess is going to be a painful transition to R3, which breaks many things from R2. I had to read the talk files (3 of them) twice...where it said about keeping the user base low. I couldn't believe it.

"Keep userbase small as long as possible"--Carl Sassenrath, from talk1.txt DevCon file.

Apparently, R3 takes such a new direction that R2 is left in the dust. Over-all, though, it sounds like inspirational lightning struck and he went with it quite awhile back. It also went on to say that R3 will one day be merged with AltMe and IOS, and even be bootable/installable without any host operating system. A 'REBOL OS', I guess. :) Sounds like an enormous project.

Also from the text1.txt...

---The master plan:

---Summary of focus *Finish REBOL 3.0 - summer 2007 *Get DevBase and DocBase online - immediately *AltME/IOS platform running - fall 2007

===Announcement of Strategic Partnership

---Starting now and for the future: *RT will be the developer of language technology *Safeworlds will be the platform and applet distributor

---These products will all be merged... *REBOL/View *REBOL/IOS *AltME 1

---Into AltME 3.0 - the Platform *Establishes a new Internet virtual operating system *Will be kept powerful, lean, and fast *Main public distribution of REBOL (replaces /View) *Available as browser plugin or separate program *Includes existing and new applets, tools, reb-sites *IOS friendly method of platform expansion *HTTP-based transport with Reb/services technology

(note: I don't know why he said 'applet' in there; I thought it was 'Reblet', but anyway...)

(at)Luis: Creative people need all the time they can get. Addmitedly, I can be the world's most persuasive slave-driver and taskmaster in a project, but at the same time I know there are times when an artist must be left to run free (and, unfortunately for some, that is most of the time, haha). They just have to get to the [computer / canvas / drafting table / work area], and maybe that's where any scolding is best ("Get there and do *something*", without any further direction).

I think a vision was formulated, regarding Rebol, the website, and ways of collaboration and so forth, and it has (natural to humans) taken some time to put into place the things which will fully deliver upon that vision. Patience is necessary, therefore. Not as if anyone can do much about it, otherwise. Waiting is all one can do, so...readjustment is necessary. See the previous quote about Happiness and make yourself okay with the way things are right now--the way things really are--and then stress falls away. I'm quite fond of saying "It is what it is", and that's exactly what it is. :)

People only get depressed, angry, sad, or fall into other negative emotional states when their desire is thwarted. They want something ("I want R3 NOW!") and when it doesn't appear that it's happening now, the negative emotional state kicks in. One can dismiss this as useless philosophy, but it is nonetheless true and how it works with humans in this world. We desire something, and although we may end up getting it, we also sometimes put our own selves through needless stresses.

I want a LOT of things, but I'm realistic about them. I've wavered, fallen down, struggled, learned--even about those very things. Amiga, in one word. ;-) But good things come to those who wait (and better things to those who do not realize the waiting). Have some fun, and try not to get too stressed out about R3 or anything else. It's a good thing Carl and others are actively working on it--and they probably are having their own local stresses, not just about family or other life issues, but also why one piece of code isn't working, or something else related. Goes with the territory. And they know this.

EyeAm
6-Nov-2007 8:26:21
ATTENTION! Message to All, about the Rebol Website redesign/reinvention and my participation: Come December 17th (a Monday), I will no longer be able to contribute ideas. I have from now until then to work with anyone--Carl Sassenrath and whomever is on the website team he selects--regarding the webpage. Fortunately, most of my graphical ideas are done, unless inspiration strikes during the interim. Anyway, just giving notice ahead of time. December 17th will be my last available to this, as December 18th begins something new for me. :-)
Luis
6-Nov-2007 8:27:06
I can get frustrated without being stressed, it's a hobby of mine. I undestand artistic freedom (and it also applies to other edeavours).

If I hadn't kept on hassling, how less clear would it be to everyone else?

EyeAm
6-Nov-2007 9:46:27
You make a fine apprentice, Luis. ;-P
Carl Sassenrath
6-Nov-2007 14:09:01
Wow. 107 comments. When exactly am I supposed to find the time to read all these? ;) I'll quickly scan for specific points.
Curious
6-Nov-2007 15:52:09
Are there any plans to Open Source the core?

Are there any plans to add back continuations or tail call optimization?

EyeAm
6-Nov-2007 18:08:04
I didn't know someone had already shared my graphics with Carl (why didn't someone tell me?). Not even sure if he had seen them all; but apparently didn't like what he saw, as far as the direction of the Rebol site. I guess the checklist got shared, too. It didn't go like I had hoped (i.e., had hoped to discuss what I had come up with). But anyway. Wish I could have offered something of help.

Good luck with the website redesign. I will keep an eye out for what results.

EyeAm
6-Nov-2007 23:30:59
Changed my mind since this post--I'm now working on the web redesign (disregard the last part). On hot on the trail of something new.

(and suddenly, EyeAm disappeared down the rabbit hole, beyond the AltMe sign, never(?) to be seen or heard from again)

Sista X
8-Nov-2007 0:23:59
RTFM? Excuse me? I spend three days and nights now to RTFM!!! I read how easy this R**** is to use. How much better it is than all other script languages combined no less. Oh! How powerful it is. Anyone should learn to use this language easy. No sweat. But after ny difficulties you all endever to try to make me look like an ignorant woman by the word "logicals" I use. Do you enjoy this? Yet the fact is most apprent now that most basic logical element "if" only supports the implicit "then" clause and does not have an implicit "else" clause. This is truly amazing that "either" can be made to support classical "then" and "else" clauses because it is what, somehow more effiecient than "if"? I suppose using class opperator ":" instesd of "=" for variable assignment is also more of this effieciency? I am begining to think you all are truly crasy contraryian peoples!
-pekr-
8-Nov-2007 1:23:32
Sista X,

why don't you calm down a bit? Why do you feel offended all the time? You know, REBOL is a functional language. It is different. The easiness comes once you get to certain level of knowledge of REBOL. You should not try to aproach REBOL programming like you would be using Visual Basic, and you can't do things in Visual Basic the REBOL way.

So, now explanation for if/then/else. REBOL interpreter parser (lexical scanner?) is rather easy, or so we were told. To keep it easy, you have to keep number of exceptions as low as possible. The basi model is - interpreter finds a word, e.g. "print", then it looks into some table, and finds out, it is pointing to function, which takes 1 argument. You can notice, that REBOL does not easily allow variable number of parameters. You can also notice, that we have to keep spaces between arguments (maybe that is the reason, why variable: 1 + 2 looks better, than variable= 1 + 2).

So, now back to "if something [some code here]". You see? Two arguments. Old construct, which was deprecated, allowed "if something [some code here] else [some code here]". You see? Now interpreter has one exception, when parsing your code, and the exception is - whenever you reach "if" function, you have to recheck, if there is "else" following - so it has either 2, or more arguments.

That is exactly the reason, why "either" was introduced - it always accepts three arguments. But - we also have some little helpers, as function refinements, so you can use if/else, and then "if" function imediatelly knows, there is more arguments following.

Why don't you join mailing list? Why don't you join AltME? Instead of studying for hours, you could get such answers in minutes, and your learning curve would be steeper.

Or, at least, as a quick helper, you can use help function in console. Try:

>> help print

>> help pri ; works with part of the words

>> help system ; works with objects

That way, you would imediatelly find out, what number of arguments "if" function takes ...

Cheers, Petr

Henrik
8-Nov-2007 4:44:48
"I am begining to think you all are truly crasy contraryian peoples!"

See? There's finally someone who's all figured us out! :-)

Carl Read
8-Nov-2007 4:56:21
Sista X,

The deprecating of ELSE and introduction of EITHER in REBOL was done for a reason, not to be contrary. And the reason was to be consistent with how REBOL works, not with how other languages work.

And ask yourself, why create a new language if the design goal is for it to be like other languages? There's deep thought behind REBOL and it's well worth learning for it's own sake, never mind that you might also find it useful. Just stick with it for a while.

Brock
8-Nov-2007 7:15:20
Sista X, Rebol is a truely useful language and please, let's all try to work together here. My point to you is I am a novice programmer at best. I have been more productive with Rebol than any other language... without taking a single course, I've made some really useful programs... for me.

Learning the differences in any language is important and as stated earlier, why have a different language if it does everything the same as other languages. The creators of these languages have their very personal reasons as to why they have chosen the operators on constructs or syntax they use. Rebol is comfortable... for me.

This BLOG is hardly the best place to truely discuss Rebol. I do suggest you check out the Rebol3 World of AltME to get more direct interaction with someone in the community inorder to get your questions answered. Many times your questions will be answered within minutes.

The Rebol community is a truely great community of open-minded talented developers who agree with Carl Sassenrath's philosophy. You will find this community to be exactly opposite of what you have so far experienced... to which I am sad you are getting this as your first impression of the community.

Join AltME, get your questions answered, and broaden your experience outside of this BLOG. The fact that you keep coming back to this BLOG means you have not given up on Rebol... which is a good thing.

Ubantu
8-Nov-2007 7:49:29
Sista X,

First off, I'd like to correct you.

You stated "Until European imposed slavery and the violent implimentation of manifest destiny pogroms disrupted the cohesive fabric of my people's culture."

Having such a fine intellect, you of course realise that slavery in Africa was around for thousands of years before the Europeans set foot there. Africans 'invented' African slavery, the Europeans merely streamlined and exported it in exchange for our goods and services. (With full co-operation and help of local tribal elders - everyone has their price).

Whether you like it or not (I'm guessing not) you have to realise that Africans themselves were 'disrupting the cohesive fabric' of our people's culture long before the Europeans arrived.

REBOL is stateless and mindless. Open your eyes sista.

Josh.

Sista X
8-Nov-2007 12:41:19
I learn so much here it is amazing.

Did not the Britsh take their own and other white peoples to work on ships being the same in actuality as slaves?

Were not European peasants the same in actuality as slaves to the feudal lords?

This past history tit for tat is not my cause here.

The fact such a fine language as is R**** is pronounced like the slave owning American Confederate "r**** yell" should disturb us all who come from such ancestry roots.

Why can you not understand, after many hundreds of years of my people being slaves in Jamaica and America, my aversion to saying the "r**** yell" with my mouth?

Sista X
8-Nov-2007 12:58:35
I am so glad you mnetioned functional languages! I propose for R**** 3

[if [cond...][then...]]

[if [cond...][then...][else...]]

The addition of the outer [ ] will afford the parser the rapid distiction of the two conditional forms.

Since R**** already parses for [ ] the implimention of the outer [ ] should be trivial. In addition, this form alows the time saving of parsing only two characters in "if" compared to the six characters in "either". Also the mantenace of two execution routines "if" and "either" can then be further reduced to the one "if" routine saving memory as well.

It is simple really when you put your mind to it all.

ingo
8-Nov-2007 13:08:48
Dear Sista X,

you are right, it should never be forgotten, lest it happens again.

On the other hand, you are not only not forgetting, you are living it over and over in your own mind. And this doesn't help you, or your cause.

I have been to Japan, where the swastika has been used as a normal sign for hundreds of years. I am from germany, so the swastika has some really bad connotations for me. I guess you can imagine my feelings, when the swastika was used on maps everywhere - to mark especially beautiful places.

It took some time, but then I realised, the swastika does not mean the same thing to japanese, as it does to me (and never will). It is not the sign, that is bad, but what has happened.

Kind regards,

Ingo

EyeAm
8-Nov-2007 13:34:46
*cranks the volume to 11* http://youtube.com/watch?v=kON5MMQm-FA
EyeAm
8-Nov-2007 13:35:52
Oops. Forgot it doesn't automatically do URLs...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kON5MMQm-FA

Mario Cassani
9-Nov-2007 0:54:07
Dear Sista X, as stated by Ingo, words, symbols and everything can be misinterpreted or misused in different cultures but this should not be a real problem for a clever mind.

The svastika in Asian culture shows the direction of the Sun's rotation, if a crazy man misused it this doesn't mean that it must be bad. Sure it is if I show it off on purpose to a Jew.

If you don't want to get sick you can get a vaccine but what's a vaccine? Nothing more than a "piece" of virus exactly as the word "rebol" (and *not* REBOL, that is capitalised as it's an acronym) is a *piece* of the two words sentence you despise! You fight bad things with a smaller part of the bad things themselves.

You might use a fork to sting people: is the fork itself bad? Should people stop saying "fork" for that?

Kill your ghosts accepting that they can exist and remember: “Hanging onto resentment is letting someone you despise live rent-free in your head.” -- Esther Lederer

I've recently found the above quote here: http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/quote-of-the-month/ann-landers-resentment

From my Oct 29's calendar another quote I hope that doesn't suit your behaviour (I translate from Italian trying to keep the wordplay): "Some people never come to concepts for they stop to preconception, as they never come to judgement for they stop to prejudice" -- Anonymous

At last, taking it with a bit of humor, think about this: Windows Vista in Italian can sound Window Svista where svista means "oversight" o "mistake". Why not send an email to Mr Gates telling him of this "slip of the tongue" in his recent product and to change his surname too as it reminds the prison's gates of some ancient Southern America tobacco, coffee or cotton fazendas?

I hope my bad English doesn't offend anyone but I cannot prevent oversights in idioms that have not been taught to me by my mother so I go on trying to get my life anyway hoping other people understands the reasons for my mistakes and does the same (getting a life).

Carl Read
9-Nov-2007 5:35:37
Sista X said...

> I propose for R**** 3...

> [if [cond...][then...]]

> [if [cond...][then...][else...]]

The problem with this is that when REBOL parsed it it would just see a block and not a block it needed to evaluate in a special way. Normally, when REBOL encounters a block, it just ignores it. This for instance...

print "here" [if [cond...][then...]] print "and there"

is perfectly valid REBOL code. (Try it in the Console.) For that to be evaluated would require the parser to check every block it encountered to see if it contained an IF followed by two blocks.

Now 'EITHER's none too good a word to describe what it does in REBOL, but that's probably just because they couldn't find the perfect English word to fit what it does do.

However, having separate functions for IF/THEN and IF/THEN/ELSE has one major advantage, and that is that whether you're a computer or human, you know at the beginning of the function whether there's one or two blocks of code to follow - there's no need to look who knows how how many lines ahead to find this out.

So, what are the advantages you see in having IF do it all that trumps that advantage?

EyeAm
9-Nov-2007 6:23:09
Have to write more code with the IF/THEN, compared to IF/THEN/ELSE (the latter of the two making things more efficient and compact).
robbie
10-Nov-2007 13:27:56
Sista X, your current existence demonstrates that not all your ancestors were eradicated through slavery. Mine survived rebellion too, as you can see.

I think you should identify yourself as S**** X since your name conceivably could be misspelled as "cyst tax", which might be alarming to people with big spots.

Go away and learn how to write software and then you can write your own language, although you're most of the way there already.

R*****

EyeAm
10-Nov-2007 14:10:52
*singing along, "...more, more, more!" http://youtube.com/watch?v=ToeY7MkCm0c
EyeAm
10-Nov-2007 14:14:24
REBOL 3.0 isn't being released until sometime 2008, right?
-pekr-
12-Nov-2007 0:19:16
Hmm, under recent cirstumcances, I doubt it. Or - it might be released, but it depends in how complete state. I would expect it starting being solid at the end of first quarter of 2008. But - DevBase showed us, how powerfull collaborative effort might be. After its release, tens of small improvements well submitted for the app itself. I hope the same will happen with REBOL code-base, once uploaded to DevBase :-)
EyeAm
12-Nov-2007 14:40:02
It will (i.e., "same will happen with REBOL code-base"). :-)

I think the whole idea of DevBase is cool. It should either be its own program--released for developers at large, for their own projects--or made a module/plug-in for AltMe. Or, maybe both.

EyeAm
12-Nov-2007 19:03:51
Speaking of AltMe, -pekr-, my new AltMe world is "EyeAm" (visitor/visitor or guest/guest for the user and password; for anyone wanting to visit sometime). I knew the other one would be tentative; but I had to change over, anyway, because my Vista OS got a nasty worm and other threats on it (my fault, not Vista) and I had to do a complete reinstall (ugh). Fortunately, none of my work was really lost, as I learned from Amiga years that it is best to have a drive for the OS (i.e., System:) and a drive for your work stuff (i.e., Work:) :-) Anything goes wrong with the system drive, reinstall and still be able to get to your work. Failing that, plug the work drive into another computer and access files. Sure beats losing anything. I have to reinstall Apache and Perl, though, and point it back to my website drive (so it'll be awhile before I get that going again through an AltMe folder).
EyeAm
13-Nov-2007 17:00:24
I uninstalled AltMe. My world GONE, baby! No more open ports for me. Lock down status (and I ain't coming out again!) :)

Seriously. To Carl and others running AltMe and using it for day-to-day stuff. It's not necessarily the program, it's the PORTS that present the problem. There is an extremely high security risk, I'm sorry to say.

Go here: http://www.paretologic.com/products/xoftspyse/ and get XoftSpySE. Download it, run it on the computer you are running AltMe (or any open/assigned ports). See what you come up with. I bought that program and managed to get rid of a keylogger, a trojan virus, a worm, and some really bad malware. Things I don't believe I had before installing AltMe and setting up the ports.

Things are slowly returning to normal here. Been reinstalling my programs. I got Vista Ultimate in February, just after it came out, and haven't really had any problem until now. Nothing this bad, anyway.

But, I'm SERIOUS. Carl, -pekr-, everyone... go download XoftSpySE and scan and see what you get. All I can think about is Rebol programming stuff getting corrupted or messed up--and you do NOT want that to happen.

You may also check into other spyware, anti-virus programs, etc. But I, myself, have found Lavasoft's Ad-Aware 2007 to be acting suspicious, so I got rid of it (for now). They have always provided a GREAT little program in Ad-Aware, til this recent version; so I dunno yet about that one.

Thought I'd give a heads-up for ya on this. If you've noticed *anything* odd lately about your computer/OS, and you're running AltMe, check into this.

-pekr-
14-Nov-2007 9:25:28
EyeAm, that is such a BS I can't believe it. I don't play guru here, but I manage wi-fi network with +350 users, so I know a bit about routers, protocols, etc.

If you want to tell me, that opened port = automatic destruction of all your privacy, then I suggest you to cut your wiress altogether, to feel safe :-)

AltME causing any problems? Ad-Aware - one of prominent adware SWs causing a problem? IIRC McAffee integrated their engine into their product. So go and send your suggestiong to those guys :-)

Anyway, EyeAm, your post is not funny anymore. It is accussation of AltME of providing a hole to your system. You should not speak like being a security expert, if apparently, you are not one. I know something about that area, yet I don't dare to put similar accussations into the air, unless I have a proof.

I believe most of this stuff comes via default web channel - unpatched system usually, IE usage without patches, etc. You are interested in security risk of ports of AltME, yet I wonder, if you ever got yourself to default Windows Firewall exceptions/protocols/services settings, which could be allowed on your system even without your knowledge :-)

Look here - it might not be wise to regard your Windows being secure by default :-) http://www.markusjansson.net/exp.html ... but please, don't do all those things, the article is a little bit paranoid for normal user. And - that is it - the security is relative thing. You will not invest millions to protect your assets worth thousand, would you?

Norman
14-Nov-2007 9:41:14
So basicly its a Microsoft problem and everyting running on it. Rebol stuff cant get currupted its the Microsoft code that gets corrupted. Its not an Altme problem its a Microsoft problem. Secondly its a User problem. And at last..dont trust ďnvestigation" software! (keep that in mind)

EyeAm
14-Nov-2007 11:26:55
I stand by what I said, -pekr-.

But try this scenario:

Suppose someone hating on Rebol, goes to the AtlMe website, to the world checker, located here http://www.altme.com/check.html , and types in 'r3-alpha'.

They would then see this: Name: R3-Alpha
Status: Active and Registered
Address: 209.167.34.213
Port: 5408
Created: 14-Feb-2006/19:15:39-8:00

And if they had those illegal denial of service 'nukers'--I'm sure you can understand the rest.

Regarding IE, I rarely ever use it, and (at least now) it's locked down even tighter than it was. I use Firefox, tweaked in the config settings for speed.

For the record, I never accused any company of anything in my post above. My assessment is right on target. Anything which uses or opens up a port on a computer runs a risk of being hacked or exploited.

As for Ad-Aware. I didn't know it had merged anything with McAffee. That explains why it is slower to respond and doesn't seem to function well, compared to before (SE Personal).

And, -pekr-, you wonder if I ever got myself to the Windows Firewall. Of course! That is where I had added AltMe ports (in addition to opening them up for this specific machine on the physical router).

Arguments that run along the line of 'you're no expert', followed by berating of said person because of not being an expert, never really take off and fly, know what I mean? :) I speak from first-hand experience, with all the reasonable conclusions I can make from the input, stimuli, environment, data, etc.; so if I wind up with the deduction that AltMe presented a security risk and I got rid of it, it should stand to reason that the threats I incurred should go away, no? After the sweep of checkers and scanners and such--and most importantly here, the closing of the ports--they indeed have.

Now. I have nothing against AltMe. I saw a great potential in it! Looks like loads of fun. It's just too early, I now think, and needs time to mature. Part of that process should no doubt be more in-depth research into the ports that get opened on someone's machine. Beyond that, I don't know what they already have in place, as far as protections, or what they don't. I can only assume that some kind of software 'gate', buffer, or protective scanner of some type could be put there at the port, to prevent malicious code from entering or operating. (maybe it's not necessary, maybe it already does something like that, I don't know).

(at)Norman: If Microsoft code (i.e., Windows) gets corrupted, and if DevBase or other Rebol-related code is sitting on it, it can indeed get corrupted or go down in flames. Same as when it's on Linux or MAC (I understand Carl runs a variety of computers/OSes, so I don't know what it sits on). I believe Rebol is not yet running on its own to where it boots without another OS, is what I'm saying. So if that OS gets corrupted, there goes your stuff.

EyeAm
14-Nov-2007 15:36:48
Incidentally, I should add this (since I'm an astrologer). Saturn having entered Virgo in September, over the course of the next TWO years, you're all going to hear a LOT about two phrases (in various fields of endeavor or occupation). They are: "Security flaws", or "Flaws in security". This will become a focus in many areas, not just computers. Homeland security (born when Saturn was in Cancer, btw; the sign of home and hearth) will no doubt attract great criticism for 'flaws in security' when it's breached.

So, just getting to the point: now is the time to start the dirty work of focusing on this, and not running away from it. It's the time for getting it right, and making sure the 'devil in the details' is ironed-out, and all is safe and secure. Nobody wants to; but it's a practical thing. Once done, the great reward is knowing things are safer and people can have fun.

-pekr-
15-Nov-2007 1:21:27
Norman,

you apparently don't know what you are talking about, and hence you're trying to paint me as some anti-MS guy. Noone said something is MS problem. But in 98% of the time, the problem is elsewhere, mostly in unpatched Windows, IE or some other, non MS SW. Each SW has its security problems from time to time, but it is not AltME this time, unless you prove otherwise. I mean - there can be some hole, but it is "unexistant", unless someone knows how to exploit it. And from info EyeAm provided - there is simply no risk. Ad-ware type of apps usually tend to report each possible problem, so it is upon user to check on it.

btw - I tried to install suggested SW and installator kicked me out, saying it can't run on Vista yet. So much for super SW which could not adapt to Vista system requirements yet ....

-pekr-
15-Nov-2007 1:55:38
EyeAm,

a little quiz for you:

- There is one very well known service we all use on everyday basis, which has VERY WELL known opened TCP port. Which one is it?

10, 9, 8 ...... 0, Drrrrrn.

Yes, you are right - it is called web, and it usually sits on port number 80.

Now, EyeAm, how is that you don't suggest us we should uninstall our browsers, because they use service, which has some known port opened, and hence can be attacked? Maybe webserver providers should close their business then? :-)

Well, it can be attacked by DOS type attacks, etc., but working with routers I know, there are some techniques, how to lower the risk - tarpitting attacker. Each opened port is simply ... opened :-) Otherwise there is no service to provide. As my colleague from security team says - the only real security is to cut the wire :-)

So yes, if AltME uses some know port, and you dst-nat it to your PC, then your PC port will be found by scanner. But remember - altme server should run on server, not on your PC, and then it sits on the same machine as your belowed webserver, so where's the risk? It is just the same. And it is just that AltME actually ALLOWS you to have your world server on your target PC.

Besides that - whole AltME traffic is encrypted by default. Now do you know that your FTP or POP3 server might send your user/password credentials in clear open-text form?

Well, security is a bit more complicated than using one SW and making conclusion upon its reports :-)

EyeAm
15-Nov-2007 6:26:11
I'm sorry the computer OS world is not as you see it, -pekr-, or want it to be. It's not that way for me on occasion, also. But, you should re-read all that I posted about this.

* I said it wasn't necessarily the program. Could be. Could be not.

* I focused on the ports. AltMe *does* utilize the ports.

Other software, working on other ports like 80 (which I'm familiar with--and people seem fond of trying to make it look like I don't know what I'm talking about) might just have better protection than AltMe has in its code. I'm unsure as to whether it does or not. I could guess that it does not. If that's offensive, then so be the ugly truth. I tell it like it is.

I call it into question! I say it needs to be looked at! I suggest that it might *not* be the same situation as other programs like a browser. This stuff got in somehow--even after a fresh reinstall of Vista (which does run the XoftSpySE program, btw--runs every time on mine; but then I have set the Compatibility Mode in the Properties of the executable. Did you try that?). After the reinstall, AltMe got reinstalled--and of course the ports were still open all through that (though I had to add AltMe and ports back , via the firewall, when setting it up). The result was more bad stuff, in a nutshell. Thus, it got uninstalled, with ports shut down.

I routinely scan with various anti-virus programs, scanners, etc.

The thing about the dst-nat... I don't ever have to do that for these other things like the internet browsers, or programs that go on the net to update. This was one of the improvements I suggested to Safeworlds for AltMe (to make it easier for end-users, so they wouldn't have to do that manually). If these other programs do this, and work fine across the net, why can't AltMe do the same. Back when I had Napster and Limewire, one never had to do that, and they work on a similar basis I think.

I *CAN* criticize AltMe (meaning both 'I am quite able to', and 'have just cause to'), but so far I have been entirely on the side of politely suggesting improvements. I mean, heck, I could have lost a lot of my saved work or something--anyone else would probably be mad at this point. I'm not. I still think it's a great idea--the features and actual program are appealing. This is just a potential problem area.

This will make you mad, -pekr-, but I'm going to say it. For all you think you know about ports and routers, and software, and AltMe, I do not think you know enough. And if you do still think you know what you're talking about, then by all means go to Safeworlds and help them with possible solutions.

I do know what I'm talking about. I won't be opening my ports (at the router) again like I did, for AltMe or any other software. If they change the way it works, and specifically address (in the program; and on their website, about what they changed to fix it) then I might give it another chance. But I think it should be back to the drawing board for it, regarding the port handling. It wasn't a 'safe world' from my perspective. And I do believe that is their main ideal.

"So yes, if AltME uses some know port, and you dst-nat it to your PC, then your PC port will be found by scanner." Exactly my point. But even if they KNOW I'd be using port 80 for browsers, they can't find that one or my machine. :-)

Now the question: What is a browser doing/using that AltMe is not, which renders the browser safer and easier to install (without dst-natting)? That would be a start. And a browser can prohibit all kinds of things.

Also, my OS is always up to date; with all patches. I run update every day, at least once but often more than once during the entire day.

Kaj
15-Nov-2007 8:01:32
Browsers do not require port 80 to be open for incoming connections. This only goes for the web servers. Since the AltME server is running on your own PC, you need an open port for incoming connections. The only way to avoid that (with Internet technology in general) is to have SafeWorlds run your server, and they do offer that option. Of course, this costs money, so it's your choice.

Still, I think it's unlikely that the open port to AltME was the cause of your infections. Only AltME receives that traffic, and as far as I know there have never been such vulnerabilities found in REBOL, and AltME is too obscure for hackers to bother with. The infections may have come in some other way, or maybe you opened more ports than necessary for AltME.

EyeAm
15-Nov-2007 8:09:44
Simply put, from what you write, you simply don't know what you are talking about. I might sound bold, but I don't care anymore. Working 4 years in security team I KNOW you NEVER know enough in that area, but - there is not some mystery behind the scenes. Ther is SW, protocols. Once you know them, you know their defficiencies. Knowing that, you could not ever consider AltME vulnerable, because it opens some special ports. Port is a port, being it 80, or anything else.

And as for p2p apps, it is pretty much usual to open special ports too, e.g. with Bittorrent or others, if you want your connection being active = allow others to init connection TO your machine.In other case you are simply passive.

The only part I agree with is - altme could use 80 port and proxying, at least on clients. That way IOS worked. So even users behind the firewall could connect to IOS servers. My impression is, that SafeWorld did that on purpose - you need specific ports opened for world lookup, and in many corporate areas you will not get thru (not a problem on your local/home PC).

As to your question about browser vs Altme - you mix two things - incoming and outgoing connections! You were World provider = you ran your server. If you want to run Apache = serve web pages, you HAVE TO open (dst-nat) port 80 on your router and forward it to your machine. If you don't do that, then there is no web accessible from the outside world. So, with Altme, I actually wonder, if it opens some ports on your local machine, if you use it only in client mode. But you were running server ....

Kaj
15-Nov-2007 8:56:47
Fine, suit yourself.
EyeAm
15-Nov-2007 11:18:38
I did not post the 'EyeAm' prior to this one. Carl can look at the IPs and verify this.

I don't find that funny at all.

-pekr-
15-Nov-2007 11:36:21
Post above Kaj's last post is my reply to EyeAm. I was replying to EyeAm, so I mistakenly used his name in Name field. So it actually is -pekr-'s post, sorry for that.

Anyway, we got pretty much off-topic here. I was just trying to defend AltME, because I really think it nearly can't even be cause of such problems ....

If anyone wants to talk such issues in details, please join REBOL3 AltME world, where we have normal IM chat capabilities, private chat etc ...

EyeAm
15-Nov-2007 13:16:02
(at)-pekr- I guess we'll leave it at that. We just disagree about it (the topic, the subject, the idea, the situation; not on a personal level).

Join you using WHAT?! ;-) Hahaha. That's a good one. You guys have a nice chat there. Hahaha.

Norman
15-Nov-2007 14:56:02
Pekr.. you apparently don't know what you are talking about>>

..No I dont Pekr.. thats why I stopped these kind of discussions back in 1989 already...

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