Comments on: Safe and friendly REBOL, but does the IT dept know that?
Does this pattern sound familiar?
Engineers in the development team at XYZ Company discover REBOL and find it to be quite useful. It is lightweight and easy. They put it to work, and soon have a solution that runs across all their computers... Windows, OSX, Linux, OpenBSD and others.
Later that same month, the XYZ IT department is inspecting their servers and finds several "bad sounding" processes called REBOL. Plus, this strange alien technology is making thousands of network connections each day!
Next, the IT staff examines a few client computers and finds REBOL there too, this time as exe files and browser plug-in components! Oh no! Be afraid!
They ask, "What is this strange REBOL infection?" Not knowing how to Google "REBOL" to find out, the IT department bans REBOL from all XYZ company computers.
Naming products is a complicated business.
The the name REBOL came from a need to move away from our first name LAVA. It sounded a bit to much like Java.
The REBOL name was intended to sound rebellious, because after all, we are rebelling against the trend that computer systems and software must be so complex and overwhelming that no one knows how to work them, let alone build or maintain them. So, in fact, we are a bunch of rebels!
But, that's not what companies want to hear, is it?
This is not a new problem. Long ago, an old Amiga friend started something called the Hackers Conference. The conference was very special... for movers and shakers of computing to get together and share ideas. Over the years, most of the legends of computing have attended and enjoyed the conference.
However, after a decade or so, the Hackers founders began to have problems. The powers-to-be at companies like XYZ did not want to pay for their techies to attend a conference called "Hackers". No, they did not understand that a hacker is not a cracker, nor did they comprehend that all the computing technology that ran their company was in fact invented by those hackers! (Management rarely understands who has the keys to the bus.)
So, the conference got renamed to Think. There's a mention on their site about the hacker name and its original meaning. But, I know that most of us who attend this conference still call it Hackers, and the t-shirts are called Hackers, and we're all just a little disappointed about the whole situation.
But, that's reality. I understand marketing better than my websites will ever show. And, I also know to those of us who voyage deeply into this void of the unknown to create the future for the many, such naming issues seem trivial and meaningless.
Yet, they are not.
So, as we embark on the new era of REBOL 3.0, we need to consider the lesson of Hackers and Think. I am not proposing a complete rename... but more of a "branding layer" that we use to keep the situation manageable. That is commonly done with many types of products. Just look at your cereal box.
Let's open the Pandora's name box for just a short while and see if any community consensus can be found.
Post your comments here publicly or send them to me privately, if they are of a sensitive nature. (Such as a great and available name that we don't want broadcast over the blog.)
I thought R3 might sound safe, while hightech, but there are other R3's.
Carl, your initials are CS. Could that be played with?
CSR3? There are quite a few CSR acronyms.
Just pondering. Have fun.
I guess you know already some of us get the "can you remove that REBOL name in the window of your program?" or "What's this R icon and how can I get rid of it?".
The labeling is the cause of a few clashes, because it's quite visible on various places, like the Viewtop, on the program icon and the titlebar in every window. The logo is very in-your-face, all-caps, high contrast and aggressive.
I suggest that REBOL as a name should stay, but associate it more with the technology and more of a term and less with the specific product.
It would spawn phrases like: "This product is powered by REBOL technology" or "I built my program using REBOL technology".
There's also the issue of what REBOL really covers? Is it a programming language, a simple desktop, one specific executable or is it a way to script things quickly?
What is "the REBOL way"?
Why are there so many different executables named REBOL?
If I want to read a book on "REBOL for Dummies", what's in the book?
Imagine a book titled "Gasoline for Dummies", what's in that book and what point is there in reading that book?
That's what I mean with presenting REBOL more as a term than a specific product, and I think that's also the first hurdle for new users to understand what REBOL really is. I think the name would do a lot better as a term.
The subnames Core, View, Pro, Command and IOS don't mean much in themselves, but are necessary if the current or similar product array is going to stay with R3. The names should probably be expanded to something more meaningful.
I suggest therefore also that the products don't carry the REBOL name and don't show the REBOL logo anywhere, but are "based on REBOL technology", only shown in the About box and when you type 'about' in the console.
I know that people might object to this and say that the name originated in the language and the product and that this would push the name into the shadows. But I think something like this would be necessary, to minimize confusion about what the Matrix... sorry, REBOL really is. :-)
Honestly, I think that one thing that might help is to change the pronunciation. If it is pronounced REE-ball, instead of REB-ull, corporates might be a little less inclined to think of it as a cracker tool. Think COBOL (KOH-ball) for an example of where one might want to associate it.
Maybe giving the developer the ability to name an application's .exe file (for those who take it that far) and title bar would be helpful, especially if whatever name is chosen wound up in the process list and taskbar. Something like this would have to be optional. I do not use REBOL in an enterprise environment (REBOL being non-approved software and all), but if it was approved, the "R" logo and the name REBOL would probably be acceptable, just as KiXtart names in the process list are acceptable.
Even so, I think that Carl is right that there may need to be another name used. Perhaps "XYZ, featuring REBOL Technology" is the way to go. Maybe a little footnote: "complies with REBOL technology at the Core|View|Pro [etc] level and below" should be appended.
Marketing stuff. Whatever XYZ is, it will be necessary to check for rights to use the name. Ugh!
Whatever we come up with, it is already late imo. I am not sure the hackers example applies here, as really, the word "hacker" sounds scary to the public. But REBOL, read as "rebel", sounds good to me. Better than LAVA.
I think that ppl can promote Rebol. I don't fear to talk about rebol, or being proud about it. But - I need to feel safe! With R2 and strategy taken, I felt like with Amiga - I would never suggest any business entity to even think about becoming dependant upon technology, which is not open, and parent company does not have clear enough message, what the business is all about.
With R3, the situation might change, if R3 is what most of us feel it is going to be. Let's not fear being rebels (rebols). We can use shortcuts like R3 (sounds nice, looks nice, I can imagine even nice logos). We can also use R#, although I would reserve it for R3 integrated with .Net.
And - let's stop using abbreviations/tlas. We suggest to use full words when programming, but then we allow /IOS, /LNS. For me, LNS is the worst decision ever - noone can decode it, even in rebol community. Let's stay with REBOL/whatever-here.
or shortcuts as
or something combined with brackets, as block is the main principle of Rebol ....
As one of the people who have brought this up to Carl, the reason I've asked about it is that, with the plugin, the users have to approve the installation of the "REBOL" plugin, and they call, thinking it's malware of some kind (though they don't use that term). Python would probably cause the same problem, as a name, maybe even Ruby would.
For me, this isn't about espousing REBOL to the masses, it's about delivering a commercial product.
RWeb Rweb RWEB
Has some good suggestions ... like "Make it Googleable".
REBOL for the Web .... RWeb.
If you pronounce it one way, it kind of sounds like the "REB" of REBOL. [from website -- REBOL is pronounced "reb-ol"]
The "Web" part points out that there is a strong "web"/internet focus to the language.
RWebAll, Rweball, or RWEBALL may be a bit too long ... although RWebAll does carry the flavor of REBOL.
Or we can just steal the steam from the computing world, starting to claim, we have web 3.0 :-) They will be nervous about how dare we to use the general term for ourselves, but well, we are first - their AJAX is web 2.0. It will produce some articles written, maybe even negative ones, but it will get Rebol into press :-) Hmm, or ARAX :-) (Asynchronous Rebol and information-eXchange).
I even liked wwr (world wide reb). [www-r] (world wide web using rebol). Well, whatever :-)|
Well, probably enough for the morning, but Reb'n'Roll ... let's reb, or let's roll? :-)|
The REBOL as in COBOL is the way I pronouce the word to managment or users in the organisation I work for. But, I am the IT dept anyway!
I must admit the word as pronounced "Reb-ull" is a bit cringe worthy when talking to those who are not clued in. In these cases I tend to expand the meaning, then they kind of look impressed. This terminology gives me a lead in to explain the elegance and power of REBOL.
I agree with the logo and window issues mentioned by Henrik. An easy way to "brand" a standard REBOL install to a corporate look would be good.
I suppose names like "Relativity3" might sound good to enterprisey types. "We've just installed Relativity3 on the servers".
Time to get the thinking cap on me thinks.
Wouldn't IT be great if we could all just RELAX?
RELAX... IT's not a problem.
This problem with the server has been bugging me for weeks! RELAX, dood.
about 103,000,000 google hits for relax. It's not good name. I still like name Rebol and or R3 as when I try to say R3 in English it sounds almost same like ARE FREE. But R3 is used as well so I don't know, I'm not a corporate/enterprisey type of person. |
Well, to me REBOL name is no worse than, say, PHP (which resembles a venereal desease to me :-) ),
or JAVA, or ASP.NET.
The point is, whatever name REBOL is called, it must be cleverly advertised in the IT world.
I'm sure Carl won't like (and he won't let it, hopefully) REBOL to fall into oblivion just like the Amiga is today!
Carl, don't do one thing in the current situation: Change the name. Here are some reasons:
1. You will never find the perfect name or nameing scheme. Look at Java: I have stopped to underst and things like Java 2 Enterprise 1.3 etc. Keep it simple. One product = one name with version number.
2. Using non related names: I have stopped following Intel's processor names. I can't remember them, I can't get them sorted, and I don't care.
3. There are a lot of references already. Rebol hasn't taken off in the large and chaning a name won't help a lot. (On the other hand, after it took of it's harder to do).
4. I like the Rebol/XYZ pattern. It fits to the language.
So, let's spend our time with something adding more value.
PS: Than rename the plug-in to "Rebol Interpreter" or "Rebol runtime environment". That's a known term from the Java guys.
And, how stupid is Java as a name?
Just a few ideas/names to play with:
fire: future internet released early;
suit: superb universal internet tool;
warp: web access ready programming;
unit: unleashed internet tool;
fuse: future universal systems engine;|
Thanks, Robert. All excellent points. It was past midnight when I came up with RELAX :) Variants:
RELX? (Nope, that's a database manager..)
XLER? (Nope, a brand of Australian steel..)
BORAX? (Kills ants, whitens laundry..)
LORAX? (The Environmentally Friendly Language!)
XNOBFOO? (Hey! Don't talk about my Mom like that!)
I agree that, generally, names that are common words really don't work very well, like "windows" :) And names that are totally made up, or that are foreign terms, can be cool, unless they sound like something else that someone finds offensive, frightening, or useless. i.e., Chevy No-Va vs. Amiga :)
1. Go for the complete rename - nobody pronounces it correctly, it's in All-Caps which makes everyone I know (including me) cringe - COBOL, LISP, UNIX .. there is a reason nobody does that anymore. (Except for the Government)
2. At least change the case - Rebol or rebol and accept the fact that everyone will pronounce it wrong.
Slapping a branding layer on REBOL doesn't go far enough, I don't think. If you decide to rename it, let us know, we'll help you invent something. You won't get everyone to agree on or like a new name, but the consensus on "REBOL" (at least in my experience) is negative.
Pick a something that you love (some kind of wine perhaps) and name it that... e.g. "merlot" .. if you google Merlot and "programming language" your Wikipedia entry comes up on the first page... not a bad sign.
Of course, if you name it that, everyone will say mer-lott
so you can't win.
+1 for Don's post.
If you need to keep it close to the current name, maybe just shorten the name to rebl to remove the "OL" language association (cobol, algol, snobol) and avoid tortured pronunciation.
I'll stick to the language current name too in order to avoid confusion and I agree both with the Web 3.0 provoking idea (REBOL: Web 3.0, the slim way) and the removal of REBOL from the titlebar.|
A couple of fields in the script header can be used to provide rebol the process name and the shown title.
The process name should be used to rename the executable when/before the script is embedded with the SDK.
It should go without saying but if one doesn't embed and doesn't want "rebol" to appear in the tasklist renaming the interpreter as the boss or paranoid sysad likes and changing the .r file association (or calling from a batch or a crontab line) will work.
Some of my friends avoid REBOL because is misknown and not as widely used as python, php, java... but when I managed to force one of them to write a script he had to admit that the learning curve is good (he is not working as a programmer) and the language powerful. What's lacking is more fame.
All UPPERCASE has to go.
I like the starting Reb...
not sure how to complete.
I call it Reb3 for now.
Rebos, as in Reb open source ?!
As a (ex)forther, I definitely like Edoc's rebl. That I look at and read as rebel. That gets me out of double thinking Reeball. Then again a sysadmin might jump even higher seeing rebl. |
I'd keep the name.. It's got a History in Google.
If your worried about admins:
Stick a Simple version number on It.
Put it into a standard intaller, as the self install is pretty dodgy thing to do.
As someone above said: The words "Runtime enviroment" or "Interpretor" should be used somewhere..
The installer should have the following files: Readme, Version History, Software License and Contact details for the Rebol Technology, Bug Reporting procedures, SHA5 checksums....
Helpful and reassuring directories Labeled
I know these aren't needed for rebol.exe, it runs from a directory... ( and is ONLY 640Kb of something similiarly small )
But these are the sort of things that inspire confidence in software... Especially if it can be shown that the software is 8 years old...
Unthinkable! Change the REBOL name? So maybe it does give the willies to some in the ruling classes...good! But, product acceptance of the language(s) is another thing thing.
To keep the spirit of revolution in the product name, one might delve back in the revolutions of the past. There are many revolutions and in them many people, places and events that may give rise to good new names for REBOL products and also keep the spirit of revolution alive.
Condiser "Gaspee", "Providence" "Mohandas" "Gandhi" "Libery" "Equality" "Fraternity" to suggest only a few that probably would not ignite the flames of hard feelings!
Vive la REBOLution !!
I really believe that the issue with IT departments is one of perceived control.
In my experience, the vast majority of IT departments want to exert control over exactly what is run on their companies computers. It is no secret that all the big oil companies operate a "locked-down" desktop policy. Users cannot install anything on their own PCs. I'm sure that all sizable banks operate the same policy.
Smaller IT departments probably can't exert such power over their users but when they come across something like Rebol can muster up a sufficiently plausible "it's a security risk" argument to "ban" it.
I believe that giving IT departments the feeling of "control" over Rebol is the answer.
I really don't think changing the name will make any difference.
metal -- marketers loves those mmmm sounds.|
concept of metal lends itself to all sorts of linguistic extensions.
it's a metalanguage. rolls off the tongue ...
metal is useful in so many way. security is bullet proof
looks like there is a basic interpreter for the mac with the name ... 5 years stale
the author also does a mac UAE port so maybe something could be worked out ...
Changing names won't do any good. Just ask Shihad...
And not changing it will save you a lot of time explaining (for years to come) why you changed it.
I'd switch to lowercase though and choose a more refined icon. The current one has to be the most amateur-looking icon on my browser's link-bar.
So, if you can't get Rebol into IT departments because it's seen as an unknown and hence maybe a security risk, do something that'll get it known about.
I'd say Rebol's biggest plus is its plugin allows for super-fast apps in a browser window. So make that available to people. Create a website where people can write, store and use programs within the browser. Create a social-network for not only sharing thoughts and videos and such, but for sharing tools as well. Make entry free so lots try it, but provide a subscriber option with more space for those who need it. Get it right and it could be very popular.
There are lots of good ideas here:
1- I like Brian's "R3" it sounds good (especially in an IT world)
2- I like Henrik's idea about the different emphasis: "This product is powered by REBOL technology" or "I built my program using REBOL technology".
3- but let go of all caps for "Rebol" as suggested by Don
4- "Merlot" is a very nice name, maybe for the "runtime environment" a.k.a plugin, since it encompasses so much, but please don't fall for all wine nomenclature
5- I also like the R3/XYZ pattern, but maybe using lowercase for the refinement thus visualy seperating it better as in "R3/services"
6- AJAX is this old harsh chemical from the sixties. Let's update to something more "Body Shop" (eco-friendly, smooth, gentle on the skin... ;-)
7- yes yes, please icon and name customization for .EXE files
The thing about R3 is, that is sounds very familiar to corporate users - SAP/R3 ;-) They actually might think, that it really belongs to corporate environment. I doubt R3 is registered trademark, so - aRe you free(3)? Also - star wars - R2D2. R3D3 :-)
I also agree for R3 abbreviation plus /full-name-lowercase here. R3/services. Simply put - R3 is new generation of REBOL technology for plus 5 years at least imo. Of course we might come with special name for browser-plugin, if we wish to. I would put there virtual machine, or interpreter. But otoh really - plugin is plugin, why should I decode what Merlot is e.g.? I do agree with Robert here.
And, I am not all that sure about all-lower case. If you scroll this comment page, "rebol" is not easilly catched by your eyes, whereas REBOL or R3 immediatelly are. It is just that R3 is shorter and does not "sound so offensive"? If we wish for "rebol", it should be part of logo, with some other main rebol principle - block ... e.g.
-[rebol]-> IT on steroids
If you really want to keep the revolution meaning, then you can use a name strongly refered to one of them. Like "Bastille".
It could also pick its meaning in the ecological sphere!
Yep, think : Rebol is one to replace many products/technology in the computer/network domain. The solution to the waste of time, money and computer power.
Save the computing planet !!
Carl propose a rename at the 'branding layer'.
At the heart of this discussion, is the ignorance of IT staffs who are not familiar with REBOL.
The truth is, "REBOL is a weak brand". It is not recognised easily and/or remembered off the mind.
Will changing name at the "branding layer" helps RT?
To me, brands is about building a multi-step focus.
RT already has a very clear focus. Keeping computing simple through Relative Expression Based Object Language.
Each step in its product line serves a need and is a stepping stone towards the next.
2. /View = /CORE + GUI
If we were to look at it from a focus and branding context, the question should first be
1. What is RT's focus? Is there any change to RT's focus?
2. How will the various 'brands' help to achieve the focus?
Branding is the fight for PERCEPTION.
Time, Fortune, Sports Illustrated, and MONEY are all great magazine brands. More importantly, they are all part of a multi-step strategy towards a single focus....... "providing news".
R3 is short and sweet. For information, there is a programming language called R which is very strong on statistical analysis.
How about REL/3, ROL/3, Rexe3.
The strap line on the REBOL technologies website is "X Internet", so how about names around this too. (ExIn3, eInet, XNet3)
I do buy into the rebellious naming concept of REBOL. The problem, as we see, being that the use of the language amoungst free thinking, creative programmers and engineers does not always sit well the conservative, corporate IT sector.
Although Apple has had it's "think different" moto for a long time, it's only now, from what I read in the IT press, starting to make inroads into the enterprise market.
Maybe it's not the name that needs to change, rather the exposure of REBOL to corporate IT managers. Real world, business use is all that is going to interest them initially. Elegance, power and simplicity are the selling points to programmers new to the REBOL way. The fight here is against the herding instinct around JAVA as such like.
Appreciate this is easier said then done.
R3 - similarity with R, SAP/R3 might help us a bit. Later we can have even R# :-)
XNet3 is good attack to web 2.0
You could derive the REBOL+1 name like this:
foreach word ["relative" "expression" "based" "object" "language"] [prin word/2]
foreach word ["relative" "expression" "based" "object" "language"] [prin to-char 1 + word/1]
Both are distinctive, one is pronounceable.
But, in any case: one issue is get you get the matching domain name?
Ok let's explore this:
pronounceable dot-com taken all-other-dots OK
tongue breaker dot-com taken all-other-dots OK
pronounceable dot-com taken all-other-dots OK
pronounceable dot-com taken all-other-dots OK
pronounceable dot-com taken all-other-dots OK
words/7 and higher get's into the stupid so I stop.
Maybe isnoneta offers us a clue:
I read it as :
IS NO NEed To Alter
(Just a little bit maybe ? Like in Rebol3: REBOL)
Apple has the "i" series of names (iLife, iWorks, iDVD, etc), Microsoft has the "." series (.Net and company), plenty of others went for "e" (E*Trade, eCommerce, eBay, etc) ... why not adopt the "/" series as it fits with current product names and is also a passing reference to refinements.
This would allow simple one-word product names like /Platform and /Services to be read as REBOL/product by people in the know while at the same time marketed as "slash product" to the masses and corporate types.
Combining two above suggestions, how about Rebl/3 or REBL/3 ?
Carl people see you as a virus,behave like it.
Your products must stay hidden like trojan horses,difference being the purpose.
No trace,no evidence,you are not officially there.
People use java on cell phones and computers.
Do they ask why java,where java?
No they simply know that java is useful for games,for their browser.
I have no java icon on my pc,no java.exe but the library is there.
It's not an example to follow as design but certainly as marketing.|
Just repeating what has been said already:
Do not change the name. Write it in all lowercase letters, though, and do not insist on pronouncing it the rebell way. Better give it a decent logo (see e.g. Factor, Ruby), icon and a homepage in friendly pastel colors. And get rid of rebol/view's "rebol" window titles and icons.
Otherwise, rename it to 'kolibri'.
Tiny footprint, lightweight, fast. Don't get me wrong, I'm being serious here.
I quite like kolibri, but it's already registered trademark. So I would stay with Rebol as I will still call it Rebol and if I could change the full title of /view windows, it would be fine. I would not worry about Rebol name in the task list as there is so many tasks with so ugly names...|
My vote is also for R3, and for icon and name customization in the task list.|
A new brand name is a good idea but marketing also ;-)
OK, let's boil. I like some current words :Rebol Core, Rebol Pro, Rebol SDK
I don't like Rebol view (it's a bit like a viewer)
R3 is cool (event if already used by SAP). R3BOL is funny.
Ok let's copy others : Visual Rebol, Rebol Mx, Rebol Fx, Rebol Xp, Rebol Reader, Rebolzilla, Rebol Gear, Rebol Fusion, RebSys, RebObjects
The same idea but with "Reb" instead of "Rebol" : Rebzilla, Rebgear, HyperReb, RebFusion
Rebol is a network aware language then something using the word "net" (like NetCode, RebNet)
Most of animal names are already used (python, jaguar, panther, leopard, Ant, tiger, tomcat, ...). Is it something not already used (and sexy).
Many geographical names are also used (Jakarta, Cayenne,...) but there are many free.
Native amercan words (Geronimo, Apache,...). Are there others used?
Why not legendary words (Excalibur already used) : Goblin (Rebol Goblin Edition), Orc.
Omni is a cool word : OmniReb (Beware! OmniNet and OmniWeb are already trademarks).
About the way Rebol is viewed on a Computer I also ask for icon & window title customization even under rebol/view (through script header).
And definitely, choose sexiest logo and icon. Organize a contest.
The process name can be also more explicit :
-Rebol Virtual Machine
and 'core' is about the worst name possible to use on *NIX|
my god, wasn't expecting this one tonight!
REBOL as a brand name is nice. It attracts a brand of people which is very well represented in the REBOL community. Smart, free, thinkers. Although LAVA might have been nice, REBOL does very well represent WHAT it is and WHAT its about.
There is also the problem that if you drop the name, you will start over all of the marketing.
Unfortunately, the problem is that you don't want the establishement to be threatened by REBELS, lest they take action and deny you your rebolution. REBOL IS desruptive, but we must not make it seems like so. It must not look outright threatening. Thus, I think the name for the language and the technology HAS to stay, but as far as products and exectuables, this is really not wise.
what to do?
if we want to keep the rebol name...
Rebol as opposed to REBOL, already much less threatening.
Keep only the first and? second letter of the technology, in general.
this way we can refer to R2, R3, R4, R#, etc for the technology.
only spell REBOL when Technologies is logically displayed after and REMOVE all other references to REBOL within the binaries.
Ex: when displaying a request, you write "browsr - plugin from Rebol Technologies" or "interpretr for the Rebol Language"
rename binaries info (official names and in binary metadata) so they are centered on what they do instead of the "REBOL" word (maybe mixing in the above suggestion of the keeping the R within the names).
viewr, runr, interpretr, commandr, encappr, buildr, browsr (whatevr, ;-)
Each standard distros name fills a ROLE, first and foremost. The rebol is secondary. This is very close to current branding, but instead of being the "REBOL viewer" it becomes the "VIEWER of rebol".
oh, and like Gregg says, PLEASE remove the name in the view title bars. Clients all hate seeing REBOL in the title. This is negative Marketing. They end up knowing that they hate having REBOL in the title all the time. :-(
As stupid as it may sound... but before investing time in a technology (and today people have a VAST selection), such a thing WILL shy away managers.
btw, I don't very like how "Reb" sounds or the type of names it creates... "reb" really means nothing, so there is little value in keeping the first 3 letters of a 5 letter acronym!|
if you really are intent on changing names, then keep REBOL Technologies, and give this new revision of the REBOL language a name.
napoleon, could be a nice strong word with personality.
This shouldn't count as a vote, because i'm mostly lurking about, but i thought of a name too:
R-yell from REBOL-yell , maybe it sounds to much like oh-well and Orwell but it sounds like royal and a heurika-sound too.
The domains are free
and the pagerank can be beat
Carl i considere you a my friend really. I love you and have lot of respect for you and your product.
But i think that's not the problem XYZ company doesn't know REBOL cause hum it's not sponsored and heavyly promoted by a BIG company like MS or Sun ... This absolutly don't mean that REBOL is bad or that your work is bad or that rebol is unusefull but franckly when you see the zillions of green tickets spent by m$ to promote there borring .NET "waste of time, stupidity and technologie robing" solution that's obvious that every single one that do a little bit of computing knows it !!!
M$ do a poo and that's in every world wide magazine internet etc... (look at that false spanish like window burk !!!)
WHAT EVER YOU CALL IT A REBOLUTION HAVE TO BE SHOUTED OUT OF THE LOUD !!!!
Hum if after 5 years or more REBOL remains unknow that's not a new name that will make it more promoted and known.
Okay i see you sad face from here Carl and I didn't ment to make you sad. So to make you happy I propose you this name : "Crocodile" for the new incomming product ^^.
Folks: "But why "Crocodile", shadwolf ?"
Shadwolf: "Cause Crocodile eats GNUs ^_^"
To be brief, the items I liked...|
- leave the name the same, it's not a naming problem.
- make Rebol known to IT admins - provide a set of system admin tools to allow easy testing of language. Instant Return On Investment, in this case time to learn as opposed to cash.
- custom icons and process name in header file
- don't show Rebol in window title
- ability to add to sys-tray
As stated by ShadWolf, a Rebolution is never lead by a quiet voice. People need to hear about Rebol, we can't rely on them finding it. Word of mouth is working... but very slowly. Time to be more forceful.
R3 is short for R3801, which is 1337! :D|
maybe a good way to help with the IT would be to make a standalone version of rebol which is compliant with one of the *nix shells... specifically FOR doing NON-rebol console work. When I mean compliant, I meant it should be able to load from the kernal and BE a shell using standard naming and automatic launching of external tools. support forking, history, background tasks, stdio/stderr/piping, etc. the current version of rebol depends on a shell... lets make one of the exectuables BE a full-blown one instead
why? well, obviously, you'll have the IT guys themselves rooting for the language, whatever its called.
call it fresh, rash, something like that.
as I see it, REBOL's marketing plan has to attack all the different angles of IT. if in a shell, you can send mail with no pop/smtp apps installed, admins will like it. if an admin can use rebol code right in the shell and god knows many rebol one-liners are powerfull, then you attrack the right crowd.
Make a REAL attempt at promoting, showing off, tutorialising, explaining, demoing PARSE and why to use it instead of regexp (and forget about awk) (I mean a full site here with tens of examples), then you'll attract a crowd. get the industry debating on the technology itself, don't care for the name... if people start to talk ABOUT rebol, then most ITs will be glad to indentify to such a moniker... really. deep down, most good sysadmins really are hackers... if you see the kind of stuff they pull off.
let go of all caps, use rebol, its more hackish.
Have one of the bash (or other) authors/evangelisers/maintainers/etc take part in the development, have an installed user base do the marketing for you. hell, propose the rebol language be INCLUDED within one of the linux distros. make deals like that. Have the industry push rebol FOR YOU.
and print a full-blown book about that advanced shell.
I am not in favor of renaming REBOL. When I offer solutions I never talk about REBOL. I talk about the X Internet or a Smart system that approaches Genius.
The best way for RT to proceed would be to keep the name REBOL and license the technology to solutions providers to rebrand in whatever way makes sense to them. Those that have to deal with IT departments will make IT friendly brands. That way REBOL gets to have an infinite number of brands.
People who use REBOL for free would have the name REBOL on the code. A licensing deal gives you the opportunity to rebrand, including changing the name at the beginning of the code from REBOL  to MyCo .
ooh. I like Maxim's idea. Call it REBOL/Shell, rhymes with Rebel Yell. Heck, why stop with a shell? There's already RebCode, take it all the way to the silicon and manufacture REBOL/Chip.
Changing the name isn't going to change the behavior of the IT folks. Just run your scenario in your post above with "LessScaryName" instead of REBOL, and you'll get the same response. The Branding layer you're talking about is the hearts and minds of the IT folk, and while a name change might be necessary (which I doubt) a name change alone would not be sufficient. Keep the name, but put in the Help > About instead of the title bar.
R3 is great. But I don't like Web3.0, it's already used sometimes. Make a big jump, use Web5.0 or something.
Also if rebol (lowercase ;) is about X-Internet, let's call the new release Xinter. Only about 600 hits on Google.
And the LAVA programming language actually exists...
I like also very much Maxim's idea.
I use sometimes rebol for small scripts that are more difficult to do with bash (example: mysql connection). But I never use it in command line.
By adding an optionnal set of commands (ls, cd, dir,...) it could be very a good bash replacement.
And, more powerful, with rebol/view it is easier to use small usefull GUI.
set-date %myfile request-date
viewlayout [image %myimg.gif btn "convert" [save/png %myimg.png]]
Rebol as shell replacement in a small linux distro ?
Marketing, acceptance -- has REBOL has every "hit the road"?
A few lectures/presentations at a few colleges/unis might be interesting and rewarding if the advance work was effective. Nothing better than "meeting and greeting" and putting a face to a great technical product. (face of the CTO that is).
"viewr, runr, interpretr, commandr..." has someting going for it, but I don't know, are they names that inspire and capture the imagination?
R3 or R/3 -- might be an idea to check with SAP legal department first,they might think the name a bit too close to their own product name and might be inclined to "vigorously defend" something or other.
- each product, view, core etc, could have its own unique logo
Can we have a logo, mascot, banner competition?|
I like R3, but pronounced RE in the best L33T tradition.
That give R3VEIW, which works nicely.
R3CORE doesn't work so well. How about COR3?
Perhaps R3DO rather than R3COMMAND?
Now I ask those who are putting the 3 in the name, what would newcomers see as significance in the number 3? Do we want to discuss the product name in an FAQ? No.
One must remember that the name has to be:
- Easy to spell.
- Easy to type (particularly so that you don't have to hold down Shift at every second letter/number).
- Easy to remember the first or second time you see it.
- Easy to figure out what it stands for.
- Easy to pronounce without breaking your tongue (even if you pronounce it wrong).
I like the original name, because it has an established base already, even if it's small. Even if you've only heard the name once, there's a chance it'll ring a bell and you just might get curious about it, because it's been here for a while, but you had previously ignored it. Time to check it out for real this time.
If we come up with another name, we have to restart that process.
The flaw is how the name is used and that it's printed everywhere.
I don't think pronounciation is particularly important. People pronounce product names like Java ("djava"/"iava"), LaTeX ("latec"/"latex"), Linux ("linix"/"lajnux"), OSX ("Oh Es Ex"/"Oh Es Ten") wrong all the time. You will see the name mostly in print way more than saying it out loud.
Keep it at "Rebol", but keep it more discrete, first letter only as uppercase.
Things not to do with a new name:
Have an X in it (the X-internet is passe marketingwise)
Have a 2.0 or even /2 in it
No punctuation in the name: not Rebol! or (worse) [r#3]
No camelcase (RebView)
Nothing that just looks like a really bad spelling (eg piisl for platform independent interpreted scripting language)
You will need something that justified still having the string REBOL  as a preamble to all scripts.
Relative Expression Based Object Language (pronounced ['rebl])
American Family Life Assurance Company (pronounced Aflac)
How Aflac (89% brand recognition) got all the way up there,(in line with Pepsi and M&M, second only to Coke), can teach us a thing or two.
Without going into more details I suggest:
Say it a few times, faster and faster, than you see where Im coming from.
I secured the 3 main dots (com net and org) ,if the REBOL community embraces RebApp its my small thank you to Carl and all of you.
Oh, and before I forget,
Please no (rev) numbers in the name !
Brand recognition is not so difficult if you have lots and lots of money.
With regard to Aflac, they poured tens of millions into its TV advertising campaigns and promotions -- perhaps 50 million over the last 5 years (a guess).
Rebol needs an identity that spreads easily via word of mouth and imbues its merits. IT and developers are not overly concerned with names, but the brand values (technical excellence, high utility, reliability, speed, etc.) need to really reasonate with prospective audiences.
A great name isn't a major advantage, but a bad one can probably hurt (Io and Lua are relatively new and seem to have done well).
I hate to keep going back to it, but the relevant features/benefits are what matters. E.g., if I can reliably marshal an Amazon S3 cloud in 12 lines of REBOL instead of 40 in Ruby, that means a lot.
Having written "REBOL" pretty consistently over the years, I would prefer to write "Rebol" - I get enough all-caps writing from SQL. I have a lot more respect for acronyms that don't seem like the phrase they were based on wasn't specifically created to make a cool acronym.
I would prefer that we use "Rebol" and make the "Regular Expression-Based Object Language" phrase seem more like a backronym. That way people could come up with their own backronyms, giving you one more area where the developer feels like they are in control.
It may be sacrilegious to suggest, but we could learn a lot from the Perl community. The language they work with may be awful looking and hard to write and debug cleanly, but it is powerful and quite a lot of it is under developer control. That is the main advantage of open source, developer control.
I think you can call REBOL anything you want as long as the developer can easily change the branding so corporate will be happy. On that note, please include an encap option (header, whatever) to set the icon(s) of the output exe file. Making it easy to resolve that and the "REBOL" in the title would deal with a lot of the complaints.
seems Brian and I are of like mind lately ;-)|
It's Relative Expression-Based Object Language, not "Regular Expression-Based Object Language."
Another reason to scrap the acronym altogether! LOL! :^)
Can relate... our company "Rogue Republik" (roguerepublik.com) has suffered the same ignorance. |
I donīt like the idea of switching REBOLīs name to something else. I believe people get used to names after a while and REBOL (no matter how it is pronounced) is already written in lots of pages over the web so far - (are we going to ignore this marketing?). Turn it open source and more people will stop feeling afraid of it!!!!!|
Exactly.... I originally suggested the name of Rebol be "Glue." I still think that is a great name for Rebol. IT can be used as a Noun and a Verb, and an Adverb. I vote changes it still. "Rebol" still gets a negative reaction from almost everyone I mention it to. They don't know how to pronounce it, and start arguing over it anyway. Just use Glue, it fixes everything. Glue it together. It is a great name.
Keep the anacronym REBOL, use the full name "Relative Expression-Based Object Language" when communicating with people that might not be familiar with the language.
"Relative Expression-Based Object Language", may connote some interest & respect. I have thought that REBOL conjures up some skepticism in some light hearted people.
Maybe there has just been an over reliance on the anacronym REBOL. Instead of giving it up, just use the full name or other names for products, add more names, not just cut and paste.
Reichart. Your opinin is interesting to me. You run succesfull company, yet I wonder, if what you wrote you really consider being of possible impact to success of REBOL?
You know, for non native englishman, "glue" is just common english word, while REBOL has no concrete meaning. So, for me, as Czech person, the marketing message of glue as a word does not work anyway.
I wonder how anyone can think, that name itself is a biggest problem of REBOL. I think that I can name the reasons why REBOL was not succesfull:
- initially not being open source was not so imporant imo
- not having free shell and library - the most important show stopper initially. We clamimed REBOL being a "glue", while technology did not allow free integration - MANY lost occassions in early days, at least on server side (php like solution)
- RT's orientation on solutions (IOS), while claiming technology is not important
- in regards to above, nearly few years of stagnated development (View), with very minor bug fixes (just compare whene 1.3 appeared after 1.2 version)
- many lost oportunities, LOST MOMENTUM, when you need much less energy to push your solution to the market
- RT could open-source REBOL to save its position, free at least shell and library (only shell appeared). When looking into many external libraries, you find most common wrappers there - perl, php, python, ruby, never rebol. For those who look final solution - they don't care you could develop it or that it takes less lines to code the wrapper
- it simply IS, or IS NOT available for target environment - REBOL
Could R3 model help in current situation? I think so, if following things are possible:
- extensible architecture
- no more stupid limitations for shell, library, or other deployment purposes
- browser plug-in. I still think that we have some nice demos, which are faster than flash rich-apps, but browser integration would have to be seamless
- RT doing more PR - interviews with Carl, etc.
- complete new website. I don't care about functionality, if it looks like 10 years old MS Word produced design, sorry. Even average gfx house here in CZ can produce better looking website. Programmers HAVE TO STOP thinking they can do gfx design
- existing DocBase and BugBase (RAMBO is mostly ok for me)
- roadmap, more sensible terms, not like announcing R3 alpha for last june, having nearly one year schedule slip.
- shorter porting to new platforms period, more frequent releases
- communication channel with RT - allow "ask question" for your blog section. Not every question has to be answered, just choose what you feel could be important to users
To quibble over analogies, I do not think of Rebol as glue at all. In my mind, glue languages integrate well with other languages, platforms and frameworks. Like TCL, Perl, or Ruby.
Rebol is quite different from most languages, and in many ways tricker for people to learn. For most non-experts, Rebol is more like double-sided sticky tape!
An author once told me that the greatest factor in determining the success of a book - is where it is placed in the bookstore. Perhaps REBOL just has not been placed in the right spot(s)!
My suggestion for a name to replace REBOL:
Comm --- the great communicator computer lanugage.
What attracted me to REBOL was its communication abilities. Communication is the the hardest thing in the world. People spend fortunes trying to communicate. Communication is where REBOL excels, and this is what should be most stressed. With REBOL/Services this is even more true.
To most people relative, expression-based, object language has no meaning whatsoever. But Comm is instantly recognized as referring to communication.
Also, even though I like the name REBOL myself, I agree with others who have stated that it causes a negative reaction from most people. Comm would not have such a reaction. "Boss, take a look at this neat software, it is written in Comm, the great communicator language."
Comm/Server for REBOL/Core
Comm/Client for REBOL/View or
Comm/Windows for REBOL/View
Comm/Pro for REBOL/Command
Comm/Services for REBOL/Services
Comm/SDK for REBOL/SDK
Comm --- the great communicator computer language from REBOL Technologies Inc. Comm is THE language for communicating between different computers and different operating systems. Comm ties together computers running Windows (all versions from 95), OSX, Linux and almost all other operating systems. Comm is the BEST language for creating dialects. No computer language communicates better than Comm.
A web search revealed no language named Comm, but a more in depth search may be in order.
Also, the name should remain Comm no matter what the version number.
An alternative would be:
which would sort to the top of every list if computer languages. !Comm is easier to type, but !Comm might be better from a marketing point of view, as it separates the language from the multitude of other uses of Comm, and makes web searches much easier.
A name should communicate what something is or does. Comm or !Comm fulfills that requirement.
Comm and play! :-)|
I think Comm is a name that is too generic and easy to forget. There are many companies with the "com" name in them. Now how did you spell that language again? "Com"? "Comm"? How do you say it over the phone?
It's also too easy to associate with something entirely different, namely the variant of the word, spelt with a single M and a U instead of O, and I doubt we want those connections.
Henrik... suddenly, Reichart's post takes on a totally different angle ;-D|
Another name suggestion with basicly the same meaning as comm:
Talk --- the computer language enabling easy communication between different operating systems on different computers; easily create special purpose dialects.
RTalk for RAPID TALK. Rapid Talk by Rebol Technologies.
Carl, I think you need that all important "Killer App" for REBOL. There is nothing wrong with the name.
(Product name / logo) powered by REBOL.
I installed Perl on a server the other day so I could run a stats generator for an FPS game and push the results to an Apache host. I've never written a line of Perl but it got me interested.
Just some input. =)
You've got the nuts & bolts, just need to build that bridge.
All the best.
No CamelCase is important, probably even more important than no ALLCAPS, since constantly messing with the shift key causes misspellings and really irritates users. Avoid spec!al ch^racters if you can.
RTalk powered by Rebol Technology really is a good name, if it isn't already taken.
I read all of the comments carefully and thought of an arch. It's a simple, effecient, elegant solution for spanning a distance between points while supporting a significant load. From a marketing point of view it conveys meaning and purpose in one syllable. - ARCH - |
LOBer - Anyone mention rebol spelled backwards?
IT would not ban iWork scripts :)
While I agree in general with making the term "Rebol" less threatening, I think changing the name now would have other more serious, unintended consequences. If someone is trying to find out more about the product, changing the name would confuse them more and lend to the notion that this product is not well developed.
The product has been around for for more than 10 years and has many revisions to make the product better.
I say keep the name just as is.
i beleave if your going to do a sub name change then it has to be along the lines of taking back ownership of the X-Internet is better than the hoax that is Net2/web2 etc winodows centric PR, so it seems simple.
'Ri3' as in RIB (Rebol Internet 3)
carls Ri3, do you Ri3 your friends, Ri3 has multicasting meat ...
If your looking to attract new users with a new layer of marketing you could try adding a codename for the release rather than renaming. Preferably with complete site re-branding and theming. Some screencasts/videos of the Viewtop and good web app examples people can try wouldn't go astray. It might just be me, but the community features on the main site feel lacking. It looks very business-like... I guess that depends on how much of a business it is to you and the image you want to portray.
I came for the language. Looks really interesting. I haven't been able to find Core source so I gather it's closed-source. Which is a pity. |
My personal favowite - emphasizing the web - would be WEBOL.|
When I think of what REBOL is all about, I think "distributed applications." Thinking analogically, "distributed" puts me in the mind of a hologram.
A hologram's information is simultaneously distributed everywhere in the hologram, so that the 3D image it produces is very robust. If you obscure or destroy parts of the hologram, it will still show the image as whole; instead of catastrophic failure it degrades very gracefully.
This distributed information-aspect of holograms, combined with the robustness and high-tech imagery associated with holograms, seems to me a good match for a potential replacement name, or at least a jumping-off point for one.
"Hologram" sounds pretty cool and all, but it might not be a good Googling name, and it might be confused with actual holograms. Perhaps we need to connect the concept back to computation/communication. Both start with "com-"...Comhologram? No. Holocom? Maybe. Perhaps HoloCom or HoloComm. I dunno. HoloNet? (Checked--HoloCom, HoloComm, and HoloNet are all taken.)
HoloVictory? HoloWeen? (J/K) Well, maybe that's a seed for someone else to germinate.
Then there's the analogy to nerves. As a name, simply Nerve has a couple of things going for it:
Consider Optic Nerve in place of REBOL/View, Auditory Nerve for a sound library, etc. There are a lot of nerves in the human body and many of them can be mapped to functions that might apply to programs. I'm sure everyone here could conjure up a few--Cranial Nerve, Facial Nerve (for REBOL/Face?), and if one doesn't map well, it could just be the "Vagus Nerve."
Anyway, just a suggestion. "Nerve" is a short word; perhaps it could be combined with another to create a unique name.
Holo Nerve? LOL Well, the brain has also been compared to a hologram...distributed and all that...
I'm getting punchy; I'm going to bed.
Synonyms: angle, bend, contract, crook, curve, lean, mould, ply, spring, stretch, tighten, tilt, yield
some languages have a PRELUDE, a LOBBY, a MEZZANINE
in USA will be pronounced OWL
I tried to get Steve Dekorte to rename IO to Aule
almost GLUE for some, any and all
I'm just a sympathizer. The language seems great to me! I was looking for some and, as I am Brazilian, I was inclined to try Lua, that is great too, but harder to comprehend and use, IMO, since I am not a programmer. When I first met REBOL, I thought: that's it! It's simple and concise, what I think means elegance. I've been looking around and learning with all you folks (thanks for that) and agree that the name is not the most important thing at all. Improvement both in marketing strategies (there is a lot of good advises right here) and in language itself (what already is the very meaning of upgrade) is much more. I think the name can ever be adapted in a way it matter, without necessarily be deprived of recognition, be it little or much. Allcaps just in code or copyright is alright, though copyright in some cases is not, in other places that may look awkward. In any case, hold on "REBOL" as such, to a certain extent, is simply logical. Right here, among followers, there are people who would hate any change on this direction. Notwithstanding, some alteration is advisable, and there are also very good outlooks, among them some are funny and others weird. The most impressive one, IMO, is Louis' RTalk, or "Rapid Talk" because it inadvertently or not may refer to the inner structure of the language, where there are only values (meaning?), words (sentence?), and series (discourse?), in brief, rapid or telling communication. Besides, the term "RT" with some kind of complement or mark relative to the version or specification, say X3ME (none occurrence at Google till now), meaning something like [scope: x version: 3 something: m else: e], or simply "RT Extreme", is expressive enough, although not conspicuous as "REBOL", to appear anywhere. RT has the advantage to refer either to REBOL Technologies and to RTalk, the product itself, allowing for future changes. It permits many layers of meaning, in any context and, above all, the name REBOL is somewhat preserved. After all, RT may also mean "Rebol Talking", not more an acronym, but a subtle new name. It can indeed mean "rebel talking", obliquely sustaining the spirit of "rebolution", some people think to be the more important. All enters on web pages will continue searchable, no matter how someone write them down and the pages can be updated opportunely. That are only a few considerations on the matter to know something about it. I don't even imagine what were decided since the last message in this topic, or if something was. The third edition of the language is still barely coming out and maybe anything this can be used.
P.s. With "[scope: x version: 3 something: m else: e]" I only intended to mention the language, not to be precise. I actually wouldn't know how, by now.
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